<p>^^^Absolutely agree.</p>
<p>JHS–I agree. I don’t know how a student does literary analysis on something they haven’t read; seems to me they are watching someone else do literary analysis, not doing it itself. (I hope what the teacher cited above meant was that she didn’t mind cliffnotes as a resource along with reading the book, rather than instead.)</p>
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<p>It’s just stupid where I come from. I’ve had teachers who purposefully read the online sparknotes and then specifically design quizzes, assignments, about things that you can’t get from there. But then again we don’t have straight questions about the book, the IB exam and all our lit papers and oral commentaries are commentaries on the writing style and elements of the text, so it isn’t that helpful to just read sparknotes. Trust me. It will only get harder. The 4x4 block sucks but they are probably assigning this now so they will have a starting point in Jan and people will work on something in the interim. </p>
<p>Plus it’s just annoying when you’re in a group and nobody has read the book and hasn’t done the assignment and just wants to copy yours. I don’t think parents really need to have any role in what or how homework gets done in 11th and 12th grade, i.e. someone said they won’t “crack the whip”, well they shouldn’t. But if they are asked for advice, the advice should probably be that at least attempting to read the book for some time before deciding it’s an impossible feat is probably the best way to start. </p>
<p>There’s a story…I forget the author, but it’s about her little brother who had to do a report on bird and he left it too late, and was sitting, overwhelmed, looking at a huge book of every different species of bird. He turns to his father helplessly and the father says “It’s okay son. Bird by bird.” This is how I think of assignments. Just start doing it. Just make a goal to read five pages. That may turn into ten. If you read ten pages a day, or even scan them, or even read ten pages and skip boring parts, well that will add up. Sometimes you even have to take things paragraph by paragraph. When I do history readings, sometimes I have to read a paragraph, summarize it in the margin, and read another. You only overwhelm yourself more when you start to get ahead of yourself and think, this is so many pages, I can’t do all of this. Because you are thinking about it in terms of once, or a little time. But the days of once or a little time kind of end when the days of worksheets end. If you break it into a lot of onces or a little times, things will go okay.</p>
<p>One of the points of reading literature is to cultivate the capacity for sympathetic imagination. You can’t do this if you substitute sparknotes for the real thing, since to read sparknotes is to assume that reading literature is like reading the newspaper–just another way to amass information. It’s like the people in art museums who spend more time reading the notes on the wall than actually looking at the works themselves. It’s comforting and safe and potentially helpful if you’re into Jeopardy or Tirivial Pursuit, but it means denying yourself the possibility of an experience that just might expand your consciousness.</p>
<p>My kids struggle with their readng occasionally, but they know that sparknotes are strictly off limits. I prefer the rudder remain in their hands, even if the seas get rough at times.</p>
<p>Wow. Yes, just to clarify, S’s teacher thought cliff notes were good resources NOT that students did not have to do the actual reading. S was also in the IB program and as princedog points out, cliff notes are no help there. As I said, for my S they were a tool that helped him get through a tough class - and by that I do NOT mean that is how he managed to pass. In areas like English he had to work twice as hard, mentally, emotionally, psychologically. as any other kid in his class, just to get his Bs.</p>
<p>“Struggle with their reading occasionally” - you really cannot know what struggling is like unless you open a book written in your native language and it might as well be have been written in another language. I really suggest that some of you read the OTHER book if you have not already done so, you might gain some equally important insights as can gained from P&P.</p>
<p>Btw, when I visit art museums, I read the notes, I actually like to have as much of an understanding about the artists as possible, their lives, their society, the world they lived in. I like to understand why they might have painted a particular picture at the time they did, not just how I feel or react to it. Believe it or not, this is how some people think. Not all of us can so easily sit down and read a book written more than 100 years ago or by someone who lives in another country and immediately understand all the hidden or literal meanings. Some of us need more perspective to develop empathy and understanding of others. Should they be denied whatever tools can help promote this - to help them “get by”?</p>
<p>The path I see Packmom developing seems to be the right one for HER son.</p>
<p>Just read the friggen books. Parents, you shouldn’t be encouraging your kids to take the easy way through life if they can’t understand something. Kids at my school get suspended and two letter grades down if they are caught using sparknotes.</p>
<p>I had to read War and Peace last summer for my AP English class. There were many sections I had to re-read, but after many hours I made it through. </p>
<p>Even if a kid isnt a bright english student, if they can make it through the book, the teacher can help work them through the meaning.</p>
<p>There is enough pressure in HS without adding the stress of reading a novel that is not your cup of tea. Life and learning hould be enjoyable and the love of learning does not happen with books shoved down your throat IMO.</p>
<p>But under that premise, I shouldn’t do math problems that I don’t “enjoy.” Or really, take anything at all or do anything that I don’t “enjoy.” High school should be fun and learning should be enjoyable without subjects shoved down my throat, right? Except high school education is to further what society has deemed necessary to be a good, contributing member to society. And part of that is some cultural literacy.</p>
<p>Wow, yeah, trigonometry wasn’t my cup of tea, either. I guess I could’ve opted out of the higher level math classes if I’d wanted to, but I got through it and found out a kinda liked calculus (and got A’s in both.) </p>
<p>No one has to be in Honors or AP classes, but choosing them is choosing to tackle something hard, as I believe the OP and her son realize.</p>
<p>Scansmom, I love the other book assigned. It’s a little stretchy to compare someone who doesn’t love reading other than concretely with a kid with autism. We’re not talking about disability here, just someone who doesn’t find this kind of learning easy (haven’t we all been there at some point?) But, again, once you choose college track or Honors track, you are choosing a certain level of work–there are other tracks for those for whom it’s impossible. No one is saying it is an easy choice, just that it’s a choice that will require work, not shortcuts.</p>
<p>Cheating? Reading Cliff/Spark Notes? Really? I think Packmom was asking for some help for her son, who is not a literary person, get through P&P over the summer. And it’s made more complicated by the fact that he may not even be entering the class until spring. Some of the responses if you ask me have not been empathetic.</p>
<p>Not everyone is into this sort of literature. It’s difficult to motivate oneself to tackle something that isn’t their thing. To use the Calculus example brought up before, if someone posted that their son/daughter didn’t like Calculus (my son loves Calculus btw) and needed help getting through the class, I don’t think advise like ‘suck it up’ is helpful.</p>
<p>As far as Honors classes- these are classes for above average students- students who are on track to go to school after high school. There are millions of students who belong in Honors classes that do not like reading books like P&P and find it difficult to get through. They still belong there.</p>
<p>It’s funny for people who propose that reading literature like P&P promotes empathy but they sure aren’t displaying much for Packmom’s son.</p>
<p>scansmom:</p>
<p>The museum analogy does not work. I’ve never used Sparksnotes or Cliffnotes, and my kids haven’t either. But my understanding is that they summarize things for you–they’re instead of reading the real thing. Museum labels are not in lieu of looking at the painting or sculpture carefully. They are there to provide additional information, to add richness to the viewing experience as opposed to taking away all the details. </p>
<p>It is true that reading P&P takes some work. One has to learn what it meant to live in the 18th century; what was expected of young women (marriage); what “entailed” meant; what being a gentleman meant; and so on, to appreciate the story more fully.</p>
<p>Packmom explained very CLEARLY in her previous post about the differentiation here in NC public schools, specifically Char/Meck school district (the largest in NC) between regular English, Honors and AP.</p>
<p>To give some perspective to those who are not aware. Our school district (the second largest and hers) does NOT have ANY remedial or special programs (resource or special ed) classes for any of the IEP kiddos. So my youngest son who has a SIGNIFICANT learning disability has REGULAR English, REGULAR math, history, science with accomodations built into the classroom assignments with extra time. In his regular English III class this semester out of the 32 students, 21 are special program students. </p>
<p>The class is a zoo. Math is more controlled however, the teacher is an ex-Marine recon specialist, they HAVE to listen. Also the lines of socio-economic status and racial segregation are clearly drawn between the regular, Honors and AP students. When we moved here from the west coast a few years ago my children went through major culture shock. In my children’s particular high school they were one of 2 URMs in ANY AP classes, ANY!</p>
<p>Our GCs are way too busy (3 for 2500 students) dealing with how many lockdowns went into effect this week to worry about the level of difficulty a particular student may have with a summer reading assignment in order to determine “proper” academic level placement.</p>
<p>Our district has 4 different types of diplomas, 1)vocational 2) technical 3)college prep/community college 4)UNC requirements. 1, 2 have students in regular English, 3 Honors English and 4 honors and AP (maybe). Out of a school of 2500 there were 3 students in son’s AP AB Calc class his junior year (so that would have included juniors and senior classes). The other 2 students parents’ are both college engineering profs at NCSU.</p>
<p>If Packmom’s son was in my youngest son’s regular English class which has the same curriculm state wide since NC has mandatory end of the year testing for required core classes it would be an “inappropriate” placement. He would not be tracked for it, the computerized scheduling system would not allow him to register for the class.</p>
<p>Hope this info sheds some light on the subject.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
<p>Doubleplay, it was your post that set me off yesterday. I agree, there are milluions of students who belong in Honors or AP classes (that’s what we were talking about) who do not like reading 19th Century novels and find them difficult to get through. I have plenty of empathy for them. But they have to read the books. That’s the deal. Then they can look at Spark Notes or whatever to help them understand what to do about it.</p>
<p>I’m glad your son loves Calculus. That’s great. But it’s not great that he went through AP English without reading the books. If nothing else, that’s a real honor problem. His job was to learn to read, and he didn’t do it but pretended he did.</p>
<p>JHS, Students figure out quickly how teachers operate. I had heard stories of how kids who read sparknotes did better than those who read the books back when my oldest took the class. He still read the books. When younger came along, I guess I threw my hands up. My attitude at that point was if the teacher wanted the sparknotes answers and if she was taking her tests from there, so be it. </p>
<p>Here is what I suggested in my first post:</p>
<p>“I’d get the spark notes or cliff notes, have him read a chapter or two of the real book, then read the synopsis so he can understand what he read.
Tell him not to cheat. It’s in his best interest to at least try. Even if he doesn’t understand 90% of the real book, he can read the chapter by chapter synopsis in the cliff/spark notes afterwards.”</p>
<p>I still stand by that. But you can bet that if Packmom’s son discovers after a month or so of taking the class that the teacher is using sparknotes for her tests, I’d advise him to study sparknotes.</p>
<p>Nobody has ever suggested that the OP’s son NOT read the book - including the OP. He is in this course because there is no appropriate alternative. He had no choice there. The museum analogy was to point out that not ALL people who read the notes on the wall are therefore NOT looking at the pictures as well. Likewise, not ALL students who use Cliff Notes or other resources to understand literature are therefore skipping the book. </p>
<p>I do not understand how anyone can call going above and beyond the assignment, by using other resources that discuss or provide other insights about the reading, or that help to provide a context within which to interpret it - as cheating or as a shortcut. Why immediately assume that a struggling kid is cheating if they read Cliff Notes? The only way to cheat with Cliff Notes is if you could have easily done the work to begin with. Kids who struggle with math can get tutoring very easily - is this also cheating? But math is more concrete, one level of math teaches the skills needed to form the foundation for learning the next. What sort of “comparable” tutoring can the student struggling through P&P get?</p>
<p>Scansmom et al–there are two separate tracks of answers here–those advocating reading the book, possibly using additional resources such as movies, sparknotes, talking with others to help his comprehension (the path that Packmom seems to intend to follow) and some other answers which seem to advocate using the notes, movie, or whatever, instead of the book.</p>
<p>I think it should be obvious that those of us who are dismayed over a lack of ethics are answering the second track of posts, not the first.</p>
<p>Kat–I know Packmom explained why he is in the class, but the reason, however good, does not negate the necessity of doing the work that’s assigned. </p>
<p>DP–the fact that kids can get through the class without doing the reading is egregious on the part of the teacher, but to throw up your hands and condone giving in sends a message that it’s all about the grade, not education itself. Not what I wanted my kids to hear from me.</p>
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Actually, that <em>IS</em> funny. </p>
<p>I’m always amazed by the ethical standards that seem to ebb and flow with every different thread! ;)</p>
<p>I think that reading the book may be easier after seeing a filmed version or reading the Sparknotes, but of course you also have to read the book. (Or listen to it on audiotape if you prefer. Going on any long trips?)</p>
<p>Yes, yes, he should read the book, although if he is actually having English in the spring, I might encourage him to do what he needs to get the writing assignment done, and actually read and study the book over Christmas - if he’s not a “literary kid”, he’s not going to remember much in Jan.</p>
<p>I only think that it is “cheating” if reading the book is actually assigned. In my daughter’s college literature classes, the students were not always expected to read the whole book in depth, sometimes it was skim reading with certain passages in depth. They did some of that in AP Literature, too.</p>
<p>I have a great deal of empathy for PackMom and Son, I can just imagine getting my son to read P&P - we would watch the movie first. As much as I love P&P, and do agree that it is one of the greatest novels in English literature, I don’t think that it is a great choice for a “middle group” high school English class. Dickens or even what D read in high school, “Tess”, might better. Although, D hated Tess, I couldn’t believe she took “English Novels” in college, as much as she disliked Tess.</p>
<p>I’m confused by the “empathy” issue. Austen’s protagonists were pretty strong on duty–you do what you’re supposed to do. Which is what Packmom’s son seems to be going to try to do. it doesn’t seem to be an empathy or lack of it issue, more like a place where someone needs to be encouraged and supported. I do empathize with Packmom, because as the encourager and supporter, she’s taken on a tough job to help someone else.</p>