<p>berurah,
Agree. My unrelated comment about younger son figuring out that his AP teacher took all her notes and test questions from sparknotes really seems to bother some. Probably more so by the fact that he ended up with a 5 on the exam.
Sometimes I live to regret my offhand comments. Now is one of those times. I’m really not a bad mom, and my kids are not really unethical dishonorable cheaters. Really.</p>
<p>DP:</p>
<p>I don’t have a lot of respect for the AP exams and your son’s experience confirms my reason. It is indeed possible to score high without doing the real work, in this case actually reading the novel instead of the synopsis.<br>
It’s like discussing books and movies on the basis of reviews. I can do it very well, actually. But it’s not the same thing as actually reading the book and seeing the film.<br>
The teacher should not be allowed to get away with it.</p>
<p>We have to remember that Sparknotes is not Masterplots. If Sparknotes simply offered plot summaries, then it might be useful for kids like Packmom’s son. Struggling kids could read the book, consult the notes to clear up any confusion, then find themselves in a position to begin to interpret, to think critically about what they now understand on a literal level. But Sparknotes offers commentary (sometimes good, sometimes lazy and flat-out wrong) that circumvents the need for inexperienced readers to make some kind of meaning out of the story for themselves. By offering commentary, Sparknotes takes the responsibility for interpretation, for critical thinking, out of the hands of the students. And so it has the potential (especially for inexperienced readers who are more likely to take the interpretations as gospel) to act as a bad teacher, one who doesn’t guide the students to come up with ideas and interpretations on their own, but who promotes a single reading as a way to fill an uncomfortable void.</p>
<p>marite,
True, AP testing does not show whether a student has read the material, or even whether the student has taken the class.
At our high school, in order to receive AP credit by exam, you have to take the class. My kids are both going into science/math fields, probably engineering. They wanted to clep out of freshman english, and as many humanities courses as they could. So they took AP Lit and AP Lang, along with other social studies APs and the like, not because they were extremely interested in the subject matter, but to get the credit.</p>
<p>You know what? I’m not even that opposed to Sparknotes. Some of what I’ve seen has been pretty good – certainly better than the Cliff Notes my friends used to use sometimes. Some isn’t. But then, there’s lots of reputable commentary on literary works that I don’t think is so hot, either. And you couldn’t do much worse than my 11th grade English Lit teacher, who was a disaster.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s cheating to use Sparknotes, or a movie, or a comic book (my introduction to Conrad was a comic book version of Lord Jim, and any poetry fan who hasn’t seen the graphic novelization of The Wasteland has missed something) after you read the damn book. As a parent/teacher, though, I would want to be sure my child wasn’t using it as a crutch to avoid thinking.</p>
<p>(Like marite, though, hearing that a kid got a 5/A in English Lit AP without reading any of the books themselves confirms my suspicions about English Lit AP and its value.)</p>
<p>But the English Lit AP tests skills, not content. As it must. For it to test content, there would have to be a nationalized curriculum of only a few works that every student in every AP Lit class in the country would have to study. This wouldn’t be a situation conducive to good teaching–or learning. </p>
<p>AP Lit tests a student’s ability to read critically and closely, and, yes, there are gifted students out there to whom this comes naturally, who can ace the AP exam before they ever enter the course. But to dismiss the AP on these grounds is to misunderstand the exam, to not recognize what it tests and how it differes from exams in other disciplines.</p>
<p>From what I’ve heard about the AP Lit exam, it’s a lot like a critical reading exam. It gives passages and then asks questions. Except for essays, I’m not sure that a student has to draw on any banked knowlege of specific literary works. The essays allow the students to draw on their own specific bank of knowlege, I believe. That is, a prompt does not refer to one particular work- for example, “Using Pride and Prejudice, expound on…” Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, that’s just what I’ve gotten from listening to my kids discuss the tests.</p>
<p>And also, AP Lit does not exempt kids from English Composition classes; I believe that would be AP Language. I think the best a kid is going to do with AP Lit is get out of some Humanities electives.</p>
<p>Edit:
Also, the extent to which exempting classes through AP depends on the major. Since my kids are going into Science, clepping Math or Bio through AP will only put them into a higher class, since they have to complete a sequence. On the other hand, they only have a requirement to take so many humanities and social science classes in anything, so it behooves them (in their opinion) to just clep out and be able to minor in something else with the extra room in their schedule. I imagine the same goes for English majors in reverse.</p>
<p>“It’s a little stretchy to compare someone who doesn’t love reading other than concretely with a kid with autism.” </p>
<p>Actually, I don’t see that as much of a stretch at all (granted, I am no doubt in the minority in thinking this way. See personal message at the end of my post below). Autism is a spectrum disorder. My S is probably closer to Packmom’s S than Christopher Boone in “The Curious Incident”, whom DS would NEVER relate to; this is not to suggest that Packmom’s S has some sort of a disability, but there are very clear differences in how males and females think and view the world; and the highest functioning individuals on the autism spectrum, those with Asperger’s, are closer to neurotypical (normal) males than they are to classic autistics. Although Christopher Boone is an excellent fictional example of autism, he does not even come close to accurately reflecting ALL autistics; one of the criticisms of his book is that he has been labeled as having Asperger’s but his bahaviors reflect a much severe form of autism. Unfortunately, a real understanding of autism cannot be developed ONLY from reading this book. </p>
<p>Another interesting tidbit I found about the connection between P&P and “The Curious Incident” (again, see below): There is actually a new book that just came out that looks at examples of autism in several characters in P&P including some members of the Bennett family, and particularly, Mr. Darcy: “So Odd a Mixture Along the Autistic Spectrum in Pride and Prejudice’” by Phyllis Ferguson Bottomer (2007). It includes forewards by a former president of the Jane Austen Society of North America and by a reknown expert in the field of autism. (I have not seen it yet, I think it is out in the UK, not sure about in the US. But as a result of this thread, my curiosity has been peaked and I will probably now go out and get it.)</p>
<p>Of course, to diagnose fictional characters that were created over 100 years ago through the lens of modern (and possibly inaccurate) views on autism can be way off the mark, just as analyzing them through any other “modern” lens can be, if it is done without an understanding of the social/historical context, or of the author’s background. Hopefully there will be additional assignments for the OP’s S that will provide this sort of context (as well as for '“The Curious Incident”).</p>
<p>[btw, personal disclosure time: I suspect that I am on the autism spectrum as well, although I have never been diagnosed. 3 children diagnosed in my family, and my brother (the father of the other 2) and I both pretty clearly fall on the spectrum, although few would ever guess about me. I am higher functioning than S socially and emotionally (who is very high functioning himself, very few people know he has AS, including some of his hs teachers, since we closed his IEP during hs), and both of us are higher functioning than my brother or both of his kids. Not surprisingly, I have close friends with autistic children/adult children. I see many aspects of the spectrum every day. I think more like a male, and have difficulties understanding or displaying the more social/emotional behaviors common in women. But I have always loved reading, and that is how I have learned to cope and understand my world and the people in it, although sometimes I am harshly reminded of how little I really do understand it. </p>
<p>(It belatedly occurs to me that) I should also apologize for monopolizing the focus of this thread on autism; I tend to become too passionate in this area, but at the same time, perhaps given the alarming rates in autism that we are hearing about, I hate seeing the amount of misunderstanding that exists among most people towards autism. So, I am always looking for “connections” to help me understand it better, and I sometimes see them where others do not, or do not care to. Then again, I frequently see many “normal” people on these boards going offtrack or off on personal tangents just as much as myself. LOL. OK, done with my O/T tangent… ]</p>
<p>Scanmom, I enjoyed your digression, but then I’ve got a quirky kid too. I don’t think he’s got autism, but if I go through one of those “Could your kid have Asperger’s” list of questions I answered “yes” to a lot of them. Of course I answered quite a few yes for myself as well, though not quite as many.</p>
<p>Mathmom, why does that not surprise me?? 
Arguably, the brain’s hard-wiring is a continuum and we all have a few short circuits here and there, and occasionally, the PCs somehow “transform” to Mac’s which sadly, generally run on different programs (personal insight:: I guess this is why I like the Mac v PC commercials so much, I relate more to the Mac guy even though I use PCs myself). </p>
<p>By the way (oops–pirating this thread again), I wanted to thank you, mathmom, for the reference to Elizabeth Moon’s “The Speed of Dark.” My reading list is suddenly including many surprising titles. I came across an interesting review while checking it out:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/speedofdark.htm[/url]”>http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/speedofdark.htm</a></p>
<p>I remember back in hs wondering sometimes why I was not more like the other girls in my classes, even the other smart ones who I most related to; back then the only difference I could point to was looks: I was the shy nerdy looking one with glasses who did not wear makeup, and I longed to be one of the pretty, popular ones with long blonde hair because then I thought others would treat me differently (not that they were cruel, rather I was just invisible to my peers although fortunately, my teachers recognized something in me and frequently took me under their wing). At one level I wanted to be accepted by my peers by becoming identical copies of them; at another level, I resisted any effort to be like them and recognized that I could not be the person I already WAS if I were to adopt their thoughts or behaviors or looks. It did not occur to me that I could be more “like” them without actually being a clone of them. Not sure exactly how this ties into P&P, but something tells me that maybe it does and that is why I liked it so much when I was younger (the internal struggle between the need for social conformity and autonomy? Rarely possible a hundred years ago…but also difficult for a modern autistic).</p>
<p>Scansmom, your posts are both enlightening and touching at the same time. Thanks!</p>
<p>Scansmom, I understand what you’re saying, but unless he literally cannot read words into paragraphs (may be the issue, honestly I don’t know and couldn’t tell you, it is possible for things like this to go deeper than just discouragement). However if the case is that the student can read, and has read well enough to get to this point, and just feels overwhelmed by the boringness of the material (trust me, the boredom can be overwhelming, I have the same reaction to old books), then it isn’t futile or impossible to at least attempt to get through the book as best as he can. Once you start reading it it gets a little better because you become at least slightly more absorbed in the events and you will not notice the “ugh, I only read two more pages since the last time I checked?” so much. </p>
<p>There is some tendency nowadays, maybe, to dismiss things as too boring. First of all there’s a million better things to do 24/7 - you can get on the internet and do whatever the heck you want. We are used to fast moving, flashy images. We have enough cable TV channels to watch something we like every time we turn on the TV. So yeah, compared to general life, for a lot of high schoolers reading P&P isn’t going to be very fun at all. But this is really just life. That transcends just reading a book. Sometimes you have to get things done when you get older and it isn’t exciting. I have empathy in the sense that I understand he won’t like the book, this is only understandable, lots of people don’t like reading at all much a less a more difficult book. But do I feel bad, well you know even having this debate is such an incredible luxury for us, we should feel lucky, there are far worse fates than having to read a book. I honestly don’t care if he does it or not - that’s his choice, but he should consider the fact that he may as well participate in the class if he is going to have to sit in it anyways. And participating fully will probably require some experience reading the text, because this was the assignment, if the class was doing some comparative film studies then the mini series would be an appropriate tool, but in this case it will only tell half the story. This is not IMO the best way to cope with the problem. It may facilitate him in getting through the book, which is good, but as someone mentioned earlier it make take what little interest would be created by suspense out, so that’s a consideration. It can also make you fall into a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, that you need some sort of crutch. The summer is probably the best time to try and surprise yourself.</p>
<p>Prince,
I differ in one respect…summer…
I remember summers when my family would take a beachwalk ending in the newstand and we would buy comics, mags, cheap novels…go back home and lay in bed in sandy feet and enjoy the hell out of ourselves.
Summer is for exploring what you love to read. Whatever it is.</p>
<p>True but I think there’s still plenty of time for that. I’m really not trying to say it won’t be time consuming, but truthfully this should not take every waking moment of the summer and if takes even close to that, then there is a deeper problem that may really need to be addressed, because this may be an indication of the amount of work that will be given in the year, when there is less time in general.</p>
<p>I had an academic program the entire month of July that had it’s own “homework” and I also had to do my extended essay and read several books for various classes. In August I worked out 30 hours a week, and I still wasted a lot of time. And I finished it all, perhaps not in the most timely manner though, but I didn’t feel like my whole summer was a waste because of the work. I read a lot of other books and magazines and believe me I don’t read intellectual stuff. It seems like most of my friends have the same experience and the summer work is mostly done during the thunderstorms (hey I did half my essay by hand when our power was out and then I only had to type it), or while traveling, etc.</p>
<p>I will reiterate what I said about summer reading, because I don’t have a problem with it for the most part (my kids have had to do tons of it since they were knee high to a grasshopper)…</p>
<p>“I have a couple friends who teach HS English and they both try to provide summer reading lists that would appeal to a variety of tastes. They also try to balance the lists as far as girl and boy preferences go. They do not teach AP English.”</p>
<p>So my point was to find a variety of good literature that would appeal to a variety of tastes and BOTH enhance the summer reading enjoyment and the goals of the class.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sometimes I really do want to pound my head on the wall but then people would really think I was autistic. As doubleplay notes, this is SUMMER reading (Strike one). Worse, this assignment is being done outside of class, with nobody else participating, no social interactions with other students or feedback from teachers, not even any in-depth analysis due in September that you might have to put real thought into; really all that is being required of the students is to write up sufficient evidence to show that they have done the reading - regurgitate back a lot of facts about the books, sort of like doing worksheets. Yep that sure sounds interesting (Strike two). And in a sense this is actually a good strategy from a teachers perspective, to have students do the reading on their own time so that they get the basics out of the way and so that less class time is spent on the prep work (getting the reading done, knowing the facts, the characters, the basic plot line), and more class time can be spent on the actual work of the class (learning - how to analyze, interpret, compare. Think). The real shame of course is that in this case the books will need to be re-read pretty thoroughly in January due to the school structure (Foul ball, wait for the next pitch. AFTER the rain slows down). </p>
<p>I have never had an issue about whether P&P was too boring for boys to read, I liked the book, and even suggested that these 2 books might actually balance each other as far as how much they interested make and female students. The OPs S always planned to read the book so hopefully the cliff notes in lieu of the book discussion is laid to rest. The real problem some posters still seem to have is accepting the idea that using other resources in addition to the book could be appropriate tools for learning and might actually enhance the learning experiencem for OPs S in particular. (And people think that autistics are rigid in their way of thinking!!)</p>
<p>It seems we have taken many steps backwards in our views toward education during the past several years and we now fail to recognize or appreciate or respect that all people have different learning styles. I am a huge proponent of Gardners multiple intelligences and the idea that real learning and engaged students takes place when a subject is taught using a students strengths. I have seen this work in my Ss school district. Visual/spatial or literal learners will get a lot more out of P&P by comparing the book to a movie or an audio tape than they ever will from just reading the book alone. Their brains process information differently from those whose strength is learning from written language. It has nothing to do with the individuals ability to read.</p>
<p>So, the real problem (IMO) is much more than that boys are bored and should just deal with it, sit down and read the book, whether they like it or not. Somewhere along the way we have managed to kill their love for learning. And what has been the result? Exactly what we are seeing today as more and more boys fall behind academically each year, and unless we wake up and look at why this is occurring and change the way we are teaching them, we are doing ALL of our kids a huge disservice (Strike three, youre OUTTA THERE!!). Sadly, the current problem goes way beyond this one student, and ironically, the solutions are not all that revolutionary or difficult (so why do we keep blaming/punishing the kids?). It is like someone with a broken leg: A broken leg will heal, but not if you yank away the crutches.</p>
<p>My son loved P & P. He is not an avid reader (at least not thistype of reading). When we watched the movie recently, he really did enjoy it… But still said “The book was better”. I didnt even know he was reading it…</p>
<p>And Kiera Knightly plays a very good role, and isn’t too hard on the eyes.</p>
<p>I’ll wager TEN of my hard-earned POSTS that son of Packmom’s English class ends up watching the movie version of Pride and Prejudice in class!!</p>
<p>Any takers? (We’ll have to get the moderators in on this) ;)</p>
<p>Where I sub, the summer reading assignments are taken seriously. There is a test (short) the first day. Then the first week or so is spent discussing the books (usually 2) and then a paper is written. The entire district (5 high schools) reads the same two books.</p>
<p>So, we should conclude that districts that would allow students to view film adaptations of novels in English classes do not take education seriously?</p>
<p>doubleplay: I sincerely hope you win your bet!!! It would give me hope that not all our schools are failing. And of course, now that I think of it, if I were to go and ask my S if they ever watched film adaptations of novels in his English class, I know what the answer would be (slaps hand against head). But then, that is what I would also expect in our district since they have a very strong MI philosophy and also a strong IB program which is very interdisciplinary.</p>
<p>I came across a document published by AP Strategies, Inc. on Tutoring Tips for AP English Classes which includes:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“https://secure.apstrategies.org/englishallaccess/tutoringtips/TUTORING%20TIPS%20AP%20English.pdf[/url]”>https://secure.apstrategies.org/englishallaccess/tutoringtips/TUTORING%20TIPS%20AP%20English.pdf</a> </p>
<p>of course, this is only one of probably hundreds of private corporations that try to market lesson plans, etc. But the point is that using MI or interdisciplinary teaching methods is neither “novel” or bad, certainly not necessarily a crutch, and sometimes, might even be a lifeline. IMO.</p>
<p>And doubleplay, to show that I am not really trying to sabotage your efforts and scare away any takers, I will sacrifice 10 of my posts if you win!!! It would be worth it.</p>