<p>^ Thomas Jefferson also was no fan of holy men and said so many times.</p>
<p>With regard to this kid, I guess we will never know whether he had prepared anything intelligent to say.</p>
<p>My kids were assigned certain segments of the Bible to read for literature. The King James version and it’s Shakespearean beauty Should be read as background for an understanding of the themes and allusions in other Western literature.</p>
<p>On a related topic there is a case in the courts on whether a graduation ceremony can be held in a church, when a school has no venue large enough or whether that is some sort of establishment of religion.</p>
<p>mini, specifically on the issue of giving thanks/blessing the bread in Matthew 14:19, I think this is indeed a prayer. The HaMotzi blessing over bread is “Blessed art Thou, LORD our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.”</p>
<p>It is not clear exactly when the “traditional” form of the HaMotzi blessing started. The “traditional” form may date to the second century. However, I think it is a reasonable conclusion that something very like these words were spoken, particularly since Matthew 14:19 says that Jesus looked toward heaven.</p>
<p>A “multitude” was present at the time.</p>
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<p>Regardless of how I feel about this incident, I would think a school which would report this to his college with the express intention of causing the school to sanction the student would be a huge overreaction and an incredibly mean spirited action. And a college which would rescind over something like this–seriously? There are schools which would actually do this? Wow.</p>
<p>I do not know if the place was the most appropriate to do what he did. My kids school is private so they resolved this problem by inviting every year a priest, or a rabbi to give the invocation. Every year they rotate and choose different denominations (sometimes adding a second minister in case of a URM).</p>
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<p>So it is okay for the majority to bully the minority who would prefer not to have somone else’s religous beliefs imposed on them? If he had done some analysis of the prayer or talked about it in a larger context, it would make more sense. But if that isn’t ramming it down the throats of people who do not share his particular religious view, then I don’t know what is. The young man could choose to go to seminary and do this every Sunday in a church where people choose to come and share his beliefs. That is great, and I fully support his opportunity to do that. But to do this in a public place that is supposed to be celebrating a secular graduation is rude and arrogant.</p>
<p>For those who say the crowd was with him, you could get beat up in a place like that (Bible belt) for openly expressing your atheism. I personally would be afraid to. Even though you could only hear cheers, there were certainly people who were silently appalled and angry. The brave people are the ones who are asking that religious activity be limited in a publically funded environment even when the bullying majority want to keep it as it has always been. It is a cowardly act to use a publically funded pulpit for your own private religious promotion.</p>
<p>Another interesting fact about Thomas Jefferson is that he attended church services in the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. </p>
<p>Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings too.</p>
<p>The whole Bill of Rights is about protecting minorities, especially unpopular ones. Majorities don’t need Bills of Rights.</p>
<p>@intparent
Is the opposite true? So it is okay for the minority to bully the majority who would prefer not to have someone else’s religious beliefs imposed on them?</p>
<p>You make it sound like the minority should rule. </p>
<p>You can’t please all the people all of the time. I think he choose the best path and pleased most of the people he was concerned with. He didn’t care about what you and I think.</p>
<p>“So it is okay for the majority to bully the minority who would prefer not to have somone else’s religous beliefs imposed on them?”</p>
<p>No. No one should bully anyone. We should respect everyone’s right to free speech and to express religion freely. You don’t have to agree. Someone from another religion praying out loud does not “bully” me.</p>
<p>He “rammed” nothing down anyone’s throat. He said a prayer. We’re allowed to do that and don’t have to be in seminary, in church or in a closet. We’re allowed, by our Bill of Rights to do it right out in the open where <strong>gasp</strong> anyone or everyone might hear us.</p>
<p>And the crowd did not seem to percieve him as rude or arrogant.</p>
<p>And I LIVE in the Bible Belt, am a Christian, and have dear friends that are atheists. I love them very much. I disagree with them, but that’s okay. I would never harm anyone, and I would not stand by and let them be harmed either. Furthermore, I have not seen this done, and would actually submit that in this country, today, a Christian who boldly expresses his faith would more likely be subject to ridicule, being ostracized, being fired, being told to shut up, etc. than an atheist boldly expressing his beliefs.</p>
<p>I think that all people should respect the rights of others to express themselves.</p>
<p>You don’t get to impose your religion in a secular setting! What part of that section of the Bill of Rights is hard for you to understand?</p>
<p>Cromette, it is bullying when people come expecting to attend a SECULAR PUBLIC SCHOOL graduation. And are stuck sitting there listening to someone pray at the podium. Obviously you are Christian, and thus have no problem with it because it is your religion. You may “love” your atheist friends, but you apparently have no trouble imposing your beliefs in a public, SECULAR ceremony.</p>
<p>“The whole Bill of Rights is about protecting minorities, especially unpopular ones. Majorities don’t need Bills of Rights.”</p>
<p>Incorrect! The Bill of Rights is for EVERYONE! When you take the rights away from the majority, they become the oppressed. The Bill of Rights is to PROTECT ALL OF THE PEOPLE from oppression.</p>
<p>What rights were taken away?</p>
<p>How is saying a prayer IMPOSING a religion? Did I make you do something? No. Are you free to plug your ears, walk away, listen quietly and respectfully even if you disagree?</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>romani - none. Hanna said the whole Bill of Rights is about protecting minorities, and that majorities don’t need the Bill of Rights.</p>
<p>It is not. It’s for everyone. The Bill of Rights is there for everyone. If you were to remove it from majorities and only apply it to minorities, there would be oppression.</p>
<p>Should I have to listen at a PUBLIC, SECULAR graduation ceremony? If it were a private religiously affiliated school, then I would expect to plug my ears/walk away if I didn’t want to hear it. But is a building, sound system, podium paid for by tax dollars. I expect the programs were printed with tax dollars and the chairs were paid for by tax dollars. The school staff there doing their jobs at the ceremony - paid for by public tax dollars.</p>
<p>Who in the what now? We’re talking about a tension between the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise clause. No one is taking away rights; they’re balancing them. How do you resolve the tension?</p>
<p>In the absence of a Bill of Rights applied to the states, I don’t think there’s any question that a majority of people in South Carolina would approve teacher-led Christian prayers in school. So how does the Bill of Rights protect that majority interest? In practice, as opposed to in theory, you don’t need a Free Exercise clause for the Christian majority there. The democratic process will write it in stone.</p>
<p>“It is a cowardly act to use a publically (sic) funded pulpit for your own private religious promotion.”</p>
<p>intparent, do you think that Abraham Lincoln was a coward when he signed a resolution on March 30, 1863 adopting a national day of prayer and fasting?</p>
<p>You can read the proclamation here.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/fast.htm[/url]”>http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/fast.htm</a></p>
<p>I’m not. I’m talking about THIS individual’s right to freedom of speech. I don’t recognize a tension, since the establishment did not sanction anything he said.</p>
<p>And I assert that it doesn’t matter whether he’s a minority or a majority - he has the right to freedom of speech.</p>
<p>The Bill of Rights is not only about protecting minorities. It’s about preserving the liberties of the people, and protecting them primarily from the prospect of a government gone wild.</p>
<p>I’m with those more bothered by the spectacle of ripping up the speech and offering nothing more than the Lord’s Prayer than the prayer itself. I’ve been forced to listen to all sorts of things I don’t value at high school graduations- trite, fatuous drivel being the most common. I can handle a little prayer as long as I’m not expected to join in. As an atheist I would love to have heard a well-reasoned speech about the importance of faith in this kid’s life. I might have learned something about how he thinks as a Christian and it might have expanded my or my kids’ horizons. To be instead given nothing more than something I could recite in my sleep simply because the speaker wanted to make a political point would irritate me and it seems the easy way out for the student. He didn’t have to support his position, he didn’t make any effort to win friends and influence people, he just muscled his point across. “Nyah, nyah! You can’t make me! I’m gonna do what I want anyway!” is not the most mature approach for this kid to have taken.</p>