<p>riprorin: Thomas Jefferson never stood to address his peers on a great occasion, ripped up his speech and recited a rote prayer in triumph instead. </p>
<p>This kid blew an opportunity to make an intellectual case (he’s valedictorian, no?), whatever he was trying to prove. In short he made a complete jack@ss of himself.</p>
<p>“You don’t get to impose your religion in a secular setting! What part of that section of the Bill of Rights is hard for you to understand?”</p>
<p>intparent, please point out to me how he was violating the Constitution by reading the Lord’s Prayer.</p>
<p>Quote: "riprorin: Thomas Jefferson never stood to address his peers on a great occasion, ripped up his speech and recited a rote prayer in triumph instead. </p>
<p>This kid blew an opportunity to make an intellectual case (he’s valedictorian, no?), whatever he was trying to prove. In short he made a complete jack@ss of himself."</p>
<p>Snowdog, Thomas Jefferson’s religious liberty was never infringed upon, as far as I know. I applaud the student’s courage and strength of conviction for standing up for his First Amendment rights.</p>
<p>Sorry, Intparent… I just saw this:</p>
<p>“Obviously you are Christian, and thus have no problem with it because it is your religion. You may “love” your atheist friends, but you apparently have no trouble imposing your beliefs in a public, SECULAR ceremony.”</p>
<p>I don’t separate my beliefs from who I am. They are part of who I am. I would not expect anyone to separate their beliefs from who they are. If any one of my atheist friends wanted to talk about why they are atheists during a speech, I probably wouldn’t like the content, but I would listen and move on with life, and I would respect their right to do so. I would not feel like I had been imposed upon or MY rights had somehow been infringed upon because,he spoke his mind. And, as I stated before, if someone had done the same with a Jewish prayer, a Hindu prayer, a Buddhist prayer, a flying purple people eater prayer - WHATEVER…I would probably have been very interested to hear that, and I would not feel like their beliefs were being forced upon me.</p>
<p>If I were a Christian in a predominately (insert any religion here) area, and someone gave a speech or recited a prayer of said religion in a public SECULAR setting, it would not bother me in the slightest. I would think that was traditionally appropriate given the populous. </p>
<p>I have been in populations that find my belief structure humorous, I have been openly ridiculed - I sort of just consider it like this, “Everyone is different. They have a right. To each his own.” and go on with life. I would never presume to tell another person they should NOT express their religious beliefs in any public setting. I might get annoyed and walk away…it could happen…but it usually is only offensive to me if someone is being overtly hateful.</p>
<p>Quote “@riprorin- You’re just daring someone to say that Abraham Lincoln did a bad thing- well, he did a lot of bad things. If you remember from US History class, he was not the glorified saint they teach us he was in elementry school.”</p>
<p>Redhuntinghat, Abraham Lincoln was a publicly funded representative and he promoted religion. In intparent’s mind, that makes him a coward.</p>
<p>Lincoln was a flawed individual, as we all are, but a coward? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The difference is, you have the ability to walk away. Part of the reason this student’s speech was so distasteful was because people were essentially forced to listen to it. Also there’s a huge difference between expanding on your beliefs and simply launching into prayer. </p>
<p>Finally, it’s laughable that in the Bible Belt Christians are more persecuted than atheists or even Jews. Sorry, but that’s just not the case.</p>
<p>whenhen, I have never been forced to listen to anything in my life. Just ask my husband. I can play on my cell phone, I can clean my nails, I can daydream or stare off into space. I don’t have to listen…for the whole 51 seconds it took him to get through his horrible horrible offensive prayer.</p>
<p>And you might be surprised how thin that Bible Belt is getting…as evidenced by the fact that whole populations that are predominately Christian are being forced to remove religious symbols from public places, remove prayer from public settings, etc. </p>
<p>I have NEVER, in my community, seen ANYONE persecuted for their religion. I have never seen or heard of anyone beaten, as one poster cited, for being atheist anywhere around where I live.</p>
<p>Deleted by cromette for being too close to the line.</p>
<p>It seems like the First Amendment is confusing to people. The First Amendment protects objectionable, controversial, and potentially offensive speech. Polite speech needs no such protection.</p>
<p>People were “forced” to listen to the Lord’s Prayer? Were they chained to their seats?</p>
<p>cromette-</p>
<p>Would you really be okay if the entire valedictory speech was the following:</p>
<p>“Our pasta, who art in a colander, Draining be your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, On top some grated parmesan. Give us this day our garlic bread, And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, For thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. Ramen.”</p>
<p>That’s a Pastafarian prayer and is about as instructive as the Lord’s Prayer is to a non-believer.</p>
<p>“If he had done some analysis of the prayer or talked about it in a larger context, it would make more sense.”</p>
<p>“you could get beat up in a place like that (Bible belt) for openly expressing your atheism”</p>
<p>@Intparent - If he had done that then he most likely would have got in trouble.I can’t find the post now but someone had a link about a girl that did get in trouble for doing that sort of Val speech. He said a prayer that most people have heard before instead of trying to convert others to his religion.</p>
<p>I live in Georgia. I haven’t heard of any atheist getting beat up for their belief. My son has friends of many different religions and atheist’s. The public school has teaches the kids to accept people regardless of their religious beliefs.</p>
<p>The valedictorian of my kid’s Catholic school tore up his approved speech and gave a speech with quotes from rappers and references to drug use, as well as discussing other inappropriate topics for a HS graduation.</p>
<p>I doubt that the school administration was very happy, and his parent’s were mortified, but no one suggested that he should be silenced, punished, sanctioned, etc.</p>
<p>“Those that we look up to, they have helped carve and mold us into the young adults that we are today,” Costner said. “I’m so thankful that both my parents led me to the Lord at a young age. And I think most of you will understand when I say …”</p>
<p>He followed up by reciting the entire Lord’s Prayer.</p>
<p>[South</a> Carolina valedictorian recites Lord’s Prayer during speech | News - Home](<a href=“http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/south-carolina-valedictorian-recites-lords-prayer-during-speech/-/1719418/20454956/-/komh46z/-/index.html]South”>http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/south-carolina-valedictorian-recites-lords-prayer-during-speech/-/1719418/20454956/-/komh46z/-/index.html)</p>
<p>I think he put the prayer in context.</p>
<p>“I think he put the prayer in context.”</p>
<p>@riprorin - OK. I suppose he did. But I still think if he had gone on into detail about his faith he may have ended up in trouble.</p>
<p>
No they weren’t but there are situations where it’s very difficult to simply walk away. A high school graduation is one of them. I never said that the student violated the first amendment, only that his prayer was distasteful given the context. </p>
<p>Also Crommette, it’s not simply the public displays of religion, but the attitudes of people regarding religion that make the Bible Belt the Bible Belt. If I went into it, I’d probably violate the terms of service so I’ll just say that many people have severe misconceptions about the values and beliefs of non Christians</p>
<p>I also think he missed the opportunity to use his position to speak about something important which could have reflected his personal values, in a way which could include everyone. I am not offended by any prayers, but having recited many as a child and not understanding what they really meant, I am sure he could have related thoughts/ideas which were meaningful to all, instead of trying to make his Christian belief the main point, on a day shared by many individuals. While it is a choice to be offended or not, I would be disappointed that a commonly known prayer would be the most interesting or inspirational reflection about high school. And the dramatics involved in ripping up the speech were unnecessary, immature and meant to provoke. I would like to think that some humility and grace could be drawn from his beliefs to share. </p>
<p>As far as prayer goes, since it can be silently performed, anywhere and at any time, I am not sure how anyone can stop someone from doing it, which is why I always think it is interesting that people think their right to pray in schools or wherever, is being taken away. Prayer is an inside job. I do like the moment of reflection which can be used by all, allows for quiet time so that you can center and focus. (or pray…for those that do)</p>
<p>It’s also been repeatedly upheld that you can pray in school- it just can’t be led by school officials and can’t be disruptive. </p>
<p>No one is attempting to take away this kid’s right to pray.</p>
<p>I suppose the school could have called the police and tried to have him arrested or they could have attempted to prevent him from graduating, but I don’t think we’ve gone that far as a society (yet).</p>
<p>I’m a nonreligious person. My kids have attended public schools where a multitude of religions are represented among the families. They have classmates who are Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran, Hindu, Sikh…</p>
<p>I have been thankful for them to have the opportunity to learn, at a personal level, how deeply important religion is to some of their friends. I have welcomed the opportunities they have had to attend services of different faiths and beliefs through the years.</p>
<p>I googled The Lord’s Prayer just now, and the site I ended up on gave an explanation of the prayer and the context, which I found interesting. (I can recite it from memory, but really had no memory of learning the context of how it came to be.) Here’s what the site said:</p>
<p>“The context of the prayer is the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus discussing how we should pray. We are not to pray to impress God or others, or to think that we might be able to manipulate Him in order to get what we want. (Matthew 6:5-7) Rather we are to come simply, as a child would to his father, and honestly, being real about our failures and our need of God.”</p>
<p>I think the young man who ripped up the speech was using The Lord’s Prayer to do exactly what that prayer was <em>not</em> meant to be used for. He had the right to pray if wanted to, but it seems to me that he used that prayer as a way to impress and manipulate others, and that is a shame. It is a beautiful prayer that was used for reasons other than its purpose. (Or at least that is how I interpret the boy’s actions in the dramatic ripping up of the speech… Lot’s of show, not much humility.)</p>
<p>I would be very embarrassed to be part of this school community, but unfortunately it doesn’t surprise me ~</p>