Holistic Admissions at Berkeley

Parents Forum
741

<p>I will point out that the perception that every kid can take AP exams is wrong. In addition to the cost of the exams (and believe me, I’ve heard enough parental complaints on this score to know it’s an issue for LOTS of people) the kid has to find a PLACE to take the exams. This means finding a high school (obviously not theirs) that will let the outsider take that exam, which means that the high school has to ALREADY be committed to giving the exam and willing to deal with another kid who isn’t <em>their</em> kid.</p>

<p>We got to jump through these hoops last year after D’s school decided that they didn’t have enough kids for the AP exam she wanted to take. I’m pretty good at this sort of maneuvering, and I’m an adult with a checkbook and credit card, but nonetheless, it took several hours of my time. I’m not sure that my very competent 16 y.o. would have thought it worthwhile to pursue the arrangements (and she sure couldn’t have gotten there without my help).</p>

<p>We forget sometimes how much background interference we do for our kids, and that not all kids have that option.</p>

<p>As for the A in calculus at the math/science magnet, one of the life skills such a school teaches is how to manage your time and set priorities. And the transcripts and applications from kids in those schools is evaluated within the context of the school, which means that the same reader is looking at kids with As in all their courses without meaningful ECs, kids with As in some of their difficult courses but not others with significant ECs (some of which they wouldn’t have had access to at the neighborhood school, so that speaks to their record) and kids with all sorts of grades and levels of commitments. This is what it means to be evaluated in context. And it would be a shame for a kid to NOT take advantage of the learning that goes on outside of the classroom. Even at high-powered schools, or perhaps particularly at high-powered schools, there are so many opportunities for the kids to learn from each other. An emphasis on grades alone (instead of grades as one aspect of the experience, albeit an important one) is shorting the kid.</p>

<p>And frankly, I don’t believe you when you say you’d rather have the kid with all A’s in your lab than the kid who got some B’s or even in some non-core course or required course, say, foreign language, but was an Olympiad winner, or whose research (which took time away from the classroom) made her an Intel finalist. Or who spent 4 years on the robotics team learning how to develop complex systems with others. This is why kids go to magnet schools – to be with other capable kids who are interested stretching their wings, and not just in the classroom.</p>

<p>I’d even argue that at such a school, the athlete with the great grades is better prepared to be in your lab than the kid who only has grades (all will have the test scores – that’s the nature of such a school) because the athlete has learned the time management skills and will be able to get stuff done more efficiently (and multi-task better). The lab skills were learned in the classroom. The people skills on the ball field.</p>

<p>The one thing that might be an issue is that kids with agency in high school don’t do as well blindly following orders. They ask questions. They are not automatons. You might have to explain the research. Seems to me that you want people thinking in a research lab.</p>

742

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<p>Excellent point. I live in a major metropolitan area and for my kids, I could find dozens with a half-hour drive. But I looked up the test centers for a few other states, just out of curiosity. In the entire state of South Dakota, there are 4 test sites. In North Dakota, there are 6. Do you think – possibly, really now – that access to test sites could be a barrier to a smart kid who lives on a ranch and doesn’t have access to commandeer a car for an entire day? </p>

<p>There is a spectacular lack of ability to picture other lives / experiences that drives me crazy on CC. “Well, all the schools <em>I</em> looked at had AP’s.” “Any kid can just up and take the AP test, what’s the big deal?” It’s this let-them-eat-cake lack of realization that not every kid is ensconced in a nice suburban household with a car at his disposable and SAT tutoring centers and every extracurricular within 5 miles of his house.</p>

743

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Does the kid have a horse?</p>

744

<p>Agreed, I don’t know the system and I am trying to learn.</p>

<p>No, the system is not an easy one. Advices that I am getting are confusing, believe me.</p>

<p>“What strikes me is how many people know so little about admissions and yet can make such extreme pronouncements about how it operates, what’s unfair and to be feared. Does not make sense to me. If this is all about, “I’m worrying that-” then say that, rather than indict. Feel free to ask.”</p>

<p>The admission process is nontransparent. Yes, it is muddy. Yes, it is unfair. Even AO readers complain that the system is non-transparent.</p>

745

<p>Lets start with a simple question. How GPA is calculated? </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Academic or non-academic? Different colleges have different lists of academic subjects.</p></li>
<li><p>Weigted / unweigted?
AP and honors classes sometimes get +1, sometimes get +0.5, sometimes not counted at all.</p></li>
<li><p>What is included into GPA?
Many school districts add to report cards classes that a HS student took online, or at the CC, or even at home! In some districts student can take an exam in foreign language and skip classes altogether. For example, our school district has an arrangement with Chinese school to test kids in Chinese language and culture. Their grade it included into the school report card, as a second language and World History (saving kids plenty of time).</p></li>
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746

<p>The admissions process to HIGHLY SELECTIVE schools is nontransparent. </p>

<p>The admissions process to the majority of colleges in this country is very transparent – here’s a formula for test scores and GPA, crank and churn, there you go, you know before you apply whether you’ll get in or not.</p>

<p>Getting back to selective schools, it is indeed true that it is not transparent. But how could it be made more transparent, unless you devised a formula? X points for being editor of the school newspaper, Y points for making the track team, Z points for playing the violin. Is that preferable, IYO? You want a formula because you want predictability. But life isn’t predictable.</p>

747

<p>Next, AP classes and AP exams</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Here everyone is telling me that AP classes are beneficial. HS counselor suggests to take less AP classes (1, max 2 in freshman class), she tells me that A in a regular class counts much more than B in an AP class. UC campuses do not count any AP classes in 9th grade, at all. Why take AP class in 9th grade, in D can wait a year, and take it next year, when it is counted?</p></li>
<li><p>Yes, it is easy to get a spot for an AP exam. Honestly, not a big deal. It may take some time and effort to organize it, but it is doable, at least in suburban and urban area (not sure about rural). Yes, AP exams cost money, but I am sure that it is possible for a poor family to find a sponsor, either through their school district, church, or community group. </p></li>
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<p>On the other hand, our school district doesn’t include any APs that were taken outside of school. Kid may take as many APs exams as he likes, no one cares. </p>

<p>AP exams were designed as a universal tool to test kids in advanced subjects. Yet, they are rarely used by top schools. </p>

<p>AP classes (through school) carry much higher weight than AP exam (taken individually). Why?</p>

748

<p>I don’t have a dog in this race and I don’t much care, but I am struck by this comment below:</p>

<p>*For example, our school district has an arrangement with Chinese school to test kids in Chinese language and culture. Their grade it included into the school report card, as a second language and World History (saving kids plenty of time). *</p>

<p>If you want to talk “unfair,” one might make the case that it’s “unfair” to give Chinese kids extra credit for Chinese language that they’ve been surrounded with from birth, when other kids who speak other languages at home don’t have the opportunity to get such credit, and kids from families where only English is spoken at home (like mine) had to go and learn foreign languages the old-fashioned way.</p>

<p>Make no mistake - I don’t much care, this isn’t anything I’d fall on a sword for, and if it applied to me / my kids I’d certainly take advantage of it, but this isn’t really a good place for you to be complaining how the system is “unfair.”</p>

749

<p>"You want a formula because you want predictability. But life isn’t predictable. "</p>

<p>I want a nice and warm feeling that my D was accepted (or not accepted) because she DESERVED it though her own achievements. I don’t want my D. to be accepted to “add to diversity”, as if she is an animal at the zoo display. </p>

<p>I certainly don’t want to pay quarter a million to get my D into a zoo with other diverse animals from various backgrounds. </p>

<p>Yes, I would like to see some objective and consistent parameters.</p>

750

<p>Yes, Pizzagirl,</p>

<p>The system in unfair. That’s my point. I don’t blame Chinese kids, at all. They are playing by the rules of the game. </p>

<p>In my very limited experience, urban schools are even more creative. I was told that they accept “homeschooled” grade into the report cards. Aleks.com - math program - also accepted as a substitute for math classes in at least one school.</p>

751

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<p>Would you also apply your argument to Hispanics getting extra credit for Spanish?</p>

752

<p>BTW, it is really easy to get a waiver to skip second language in most schools, if a kid can pass exam. </p>

<p>Talking about time management skills.</p>

753

<p>to Beliavsky,</p>

<p>Yes, of course my D. would do the same with Spanish (but not World History, unfortunately). </p>

<p>However, I have to admit that Chinese (to their credit) are far better organized in getting extra credits to their kids, than Hispanics.</p>

754

<p>to Pizzagirl,</p>

<p>It doesn’t matter how Chinese kids learned second language. If they know it, they have to get credit for it. And I really applaud their parents, who organized Chinese school, put curriculum together, put all paperwork together, convinced school district, etc. It’s not an easy job, trust me. :)</p>

755

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<p>Of course I would. (Why would you think that I wouldn’t?)
Again, I don’t particularly care much about this issue, and it’s fine with me that credit is given. But it’s just interesting how people object to the deck being stacked, unless all of a sudden they’re doing the stacking themselves.</p>

756

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<p>Do you think “not accepted” means “wasn’t deserving”? Or does it simply mean “not accepted”? I think you’re having a hard time understanding that these schools simply don’t have the room to admit every “deserving” candidate. If Harvard receives 40,000 apps and admits 2,000, they aren’t saying “of the 40,000 applicants, only 2000 were deserving.” It could easily be that 10,000 of them were “deserving,” but they only have so much room at the inn.</p>

757

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As others have pointed out, you have many schools to choose from if this is what you want. However, the most selective schools, and others that use holistic admissions, don’t agree with you that objective and consistent parameters are the best way to build a college class. What’s hard to understand about that?</p>

758

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<p>Not really. Math, science, English, social studies/history, foreign language. Those five are pretty universally considered the “academic subjects”.</p>

<p>The other two things you mention are high school differences, not college differences.</p>

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<p>Right here in this thread an interview with Harvard’s head of admissions was posted and he specifically said he thinks AP exams are a more important predictor of college success than SAT/ACT. </p>

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<p>Then it’s easy! Only allow her to apply to schools that consider GPA and test scores so no “animals” are admitted. Easy!</p>

759

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<p>Yes, because - as I’ve said earlier - only half of public high schools in this country even offer them, and so anyone with a mind for “fairness” would say - you shouldn’t set performance on AP’s as an absolute criteria when the access differs so greatly. You like fairness, so you’d agree with that, right?</p>

<p>All the same – you’re making too big of a deal. If your kid likes a specific subject and thinks the AP class would be a good fit, then take it. If she doesn’t, then don’t. You have got to stop thinking that your job here is to mold your daughter into something-that-elite-schools-approve-of. She will get a LOT farther down the road if she just develops what interests her. I think culturally you may not understand that here in the US, the idea of sucking up and remaking yourself into what you think a school wants isn’t well received. Better to just develop yourself the best way you can with your own strengths and talents.</p>

760

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<p>If you think that the elite schools admit students in a way that doesn’t please you, or you think their reasons for who they admit are wrong, or you think that the student body consists of undeserving kids who were just cobbled there to create a mosaic of different colors / races, you are FREE NOT TO SEND YOUR DAUGHTER THERE. What is so hard about this?</p>