Holistic Admissions at Berkeley

californiaaa · August 22, 2013, 1:23pm

to OHMomof2,

Thank you, I know that my D. can apply non-top colleges. And would be eventually admitted to some college, unless something unusual happens.

Colleges are expensive. Colleges are time-consuming. Any reason to go to a third-tier college in USA? For the same amount of money, one can try Oxford-Cambridge (merit admission). Many other UK colleges cost even less. Universities in Spain - very cheap. U Toronto - cheap, merit-based, close to US, bad whether. Australia - nice weather, cheap, safe.

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 1:24pm

746, based on my experience, which is not UC 1. GPA is calculated by the hs. Some include everything taken. The adcoms see this GPA, sure, then move to the transcript, to see how the kid chose and performed in traditional core classes, as well as others. There’s a School Report in the app, which generally indicates extra required classes (religion, ethics, local history, personal finance, etc.) If the hs forced kids into prereqs, (eg, honors classes before AP,) that’s also usually covered. Remember that adcoms at selectives know a great deal about high schools in their region- or how to learn what they do not.

<ol>
<li> Taking AP exams without the class participation can be seen as a shortcut. Unless there is a solid purpose behind it. Aiui, they were not “designed as a universal tool to test kids in advanced subjects.” The classes were designed to offer advanced learning. Hence, not everyone is as impressed by simply taking the test, as hs kids and families can be.</li>
</ol>

<ul>
<li>US kids get credit for taking English, btw. At the AP level, all this is more than conversational skills. </li>
</ul>

But get out of the hs mentality- high schools around the country do all sorts of goofy things. What you care about is the professional adcom’s reaction. We get Hispanics, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, etc, kids taking AP in their native languages. It’s not make-or-break and one of the first things I do is look to see if the AP replaced some other core rigor or simply augmented it.

Calif earlier said kids can’t get straight A’s at a tough school, have time for 5 clubs, APs, leadership, charity and more-

Meet your competition. Yup, plenty ARE doing that, with good scores- and music, sports, religious/cultural activities, having friendships, maybe a job, maybe some family responsibilities, and living a normal life. That is not to say that is the bar, nor that you have to cram it in to look good. Just following merrily along in hs and doing what you want, what the school makes easy, what meets your social wants, etc, is too often not a sign of stepping up and stretching. This is absolutely NOT about Asians or limited to Asians, nor about SES or limited to SES advantaged kids.

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 1:27pm

Harvard’s head of admissions was posted and he specifically said he thinks AP exams are a more important predictor of college success than SAT/ACT

I’ve looked at that before, couldn’t quick-find it yesterday. I believe the general was talk of soph college GPA, not "college success. Maybe Bel can link it for me or pm it.

And, btw, this stuff about your D not wanting to claim her heritage is silly. If she is the top performer you predict she will be, she will draw attention based on her own merits. Period.

TatinG · August 22, 2013, 1:32pm

There was an interesting article in the LA Times last week. (Not sure if I can post it). It was about a top student from Jefferson High in L. A. and the trouble he was having trying to do the work at Berkeley. He couldn’t write an essay. His first quarter GPA was very low. He was really struggling and couldn’t understand why. He was second in his class at Jefferson.

The article gave his high school GPA (something like 4.06) but didn’t give his SAT scores, but since he was failing a basic writing class, one can only surmise his verbal score was poor.

Grades from a poor high school with little competition for grades or easy grading teachers aren’t comparable to very highly rated high schools with lots of grade competition.

It does these kids no favors to admit them when they are ill-prepared to do the work. He would have been better off in community college attaining more writing skills and then go to Berkeley.

californiaaa · August 22, 2013, 1:37pm

“the student body consists of undeserving kids who were just cobbled there to create a mosaic of different colors / races,”

Never ever I’ve mentioned race or socio-economic status. Artificial diversity is what it is …artificial diversity … 5% violin players, 10% athletes, 20% geeks, 5% ballerinas … that’s a zoo. Honestly. I don’t want my D to be another animal on that display. That’s all.

Engineering dept should value and select kids that are interested in engineering. Art department should select artists. Too simple?

When you hire a person, you look at his job related qualifications. You don’t question his family income, his siblings, his public work, his athletic achievements, his hobbies. Such questions considered unprofessional … yet they are making a bulk of a college application.

Beliavsky · August 22, 2013, 1:39pm

Since almost all applicants take the SAT and/or ACT, the question is whether AP scores add
incremental information to SAT/ACT scores and high school grades.

They do according to [The Relationship Between AP® Exam Perfomance and College Outcomes](<a href=“http://research.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/publications/2012/7/researchreport-2009-4-relationship-between-ap-exam-performance-college-outcomes.pdf”>http://research.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/publications/2012/7/researchreport-2009-4-relationship-between-ap-exam-performance-college-outcomes.pdf</a>)

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 1:40pm

We discussed that article (this thread or another most of us were on.) He is one kid. he makes good storytelling, no? No one has indicated he is representative. I recall he had tremendous support from his hs.

This is offensive: into a zoo with other diverse animals from various backgrounds.

First off, there’s a nice biblical tale… And second, we are all diverse, in many ways.

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 1:45pm

*Artificial diversity is what it is …artificial diversity … 5% violin players, 10% athletes, 20% geeks, 5% ballerinas … that’s a zoo. Honestly. I don’t want my D to be another animal on that display. That’s all. *

We don’t pick that way.

I never, ever, ever, thought of these kids as animals on any sort of display.
My gawd.

OHMomof2 · August 22, 2013, 1:47pm

Very true. Some kids actually do better when time is limited. What do they say? If you want something done ask a busy person?

I’ll say it again - that story is newsworthy because it’s so rare.

californiaaa · August 22, 2013, 1:49pm

to lookingforward ,

Thank you very much for your post. I really appreciate your insight.

<ol>
<li>“GPA is calculated by the hs. Some include everything taken. The adcoms see this GPA, sure, then move to the transcript, to see how the kid chose and performed in traditional core classes, as well as others” </li>
</ol>

Thanks! I need to ask how GPA is calculated in our HS.

<ol>
<li>“There’s a School Report in the app, which generally indicates extra required classes (religion, ethics, local history, personal finance, etc.)”. </li>
</ol>

Again, I need to check it with the HS.

<ol>
<li>“Remember that adcoms at selectives know a great deal about high schools in their region- or how to learn what they do not.”</li>
</ol>

Is it good or not? On one hand, adcoms know rigor of a magnet school. On the other hand “we are getting too many kids like this”. Magnet school may be a non-interesting story for them.

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 1:51pm

Bel, I think there is a quote from Fitzsimmons, somewhere.

californiaaa · August 22, 2013, 2:01pm

So many people read “diversity” as a racial diversity. Hey, Sigmund Freud would say that your interpretation of my post tells more about you, than about me.

Second, we are all animals. Humans belong to an animal kingdom. Unless you want to classify someone as an amoeba.

Artificial diversity is appalling. Once you start selecting kids by anything, except their abilities in the subject that they are applying for, you select an artificial diversity.

“Building a diverse class” … instead of … “selecting the very best and brightest” …

Sorry if I offended someone by comparing college to a zoo. Zoo is an ultimately diverse place, BTW.

Pizzagirl · August 22, 2013, 2:13pm

What schools are you defining as first tier, second tier, third tier?

I have the uneasy impression that for you, HYPSM and maybe a few others are first tier, then there are maybe a dozen or so second tier, and then everything else is third tier. But please disabuse me of my notions if I’m wrong.

Pizzagirl · August 22, 2013, 2:19pm

But you are driving yourself crazy over things you can’t control!

Look, I had a double-legacy son apply to an elite university. I could have driven myself batty.
On one hand, double-legacy, great.
On the other hand – same geographic area as the college, no geographic diversity.

On one hand, not a lot of kids applying from his school – great, less competition.
On the other hand – they’re not as familiar with that high school as they are with others.

On one hand – highly active in XYZ political extracurricular
On the other hand – proponents of XYZ are a dime a dozen on college campuses.

Look – you’re trying to game the system. You’re trying to think that there is a specific mold in mind and trying to match your daughter to it, or bemoaning that a mold exists. The only mold that exists is the desire for her to express who SHE is, through her choice of academics, extracurriculars, essays, and so forth. If she does that well - then there is no problem. You seem to be worried that she won’t get into an elite school – that there is no guarantee. Well, there are no guarantees in life.

If she enjoys / is interested in an AP, then take it. If there’s an AP that she’s on the fence about and she thinks it will take away time from something else she is dedicated to, then skip it. If a magnet school is right for her – then go there and don’t look back. You’re betraying a mindset of conformity to what you think “authorities” want.

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 2:21pm

Is it good that adcoms know the hs? Sometimes very good, sometimes it does alter their perspective on one kid’s performance. Which can be good or bad, for that kid.

As you know, not all magnets are highly competitive, top performing hs. On the school report, it also indicates % headed off to 2 or 4 year colleges, number who took standardized tests and usually something about score distribution. Much of this is public and findable on the web. You were advised to put D in the more rigorous school, for many good reasons.

Selecting the best and brightest- if you narrow your vision down, sure, it will seem only stats tell the story. In many respects, that is the very sort of thinking we try to avoid in applicants. (Eg, do we want scientists who already purport to know the answers? Or those who can openly, creatively test, with a broad body of approaches to reference? Those willing to explore, “go where no man has gone before?” Those willing to learn beyond the reaches of their career ideas and grow?)

Best and brightest does include how a kid chooses, thinks, reacts, takes on challenges and is resilient. Influences and is, in turn, influenced. Able to engage beyond academics. It’s fun to think of some brilliant guy who does nothing but scratch over some topic of driving interest to him. Doesn’t need others, doesn’t need a life because that is his life. But that’s not what the college experience is solely about. Like it or not. That’s not even the only definition of what success means, in life.

And, this is all different enough than hiring that the hiring protocols don’t automatically apply.

PG makes a good point about geo diversity- worry about that. I keep saying it.

OHMomof2 · August 22, 2013, 2:25pm

A lot of parents on CC should hear this message…

lookingforward · August 22, 2013, 2:28pm

^Especially for a 9th grader or rising 10th grader. They can bear some of the academic pressure and, often, should be steered to the activities. But they are emotionally still developing.

ucbalumnus · August 22, 2013, 2:32pm

Yes, they do, but how do you compare students coming from schools with varying levels of academic opportunities that can impose a ceiling on the achievements that they can present to colleges for admission? E.g. suppose a student with a 4.0 GPA including 1 out of 1 AP course/test offered applies (let’s assume that the AP course is the most rigorous course at that high school – i.e. not a high school that offers few AP courses because it has “better than AP” courses). Meanwhile, another student from another school with 10 AP courses/tests applies with a 4.0 GPA including 5 of the AP courses/tests (let’s say both students also got 5 scores on any AP tests that they take before senior year and both students did similarly well on SAT or ACT tests covering less advanced material). Clearly, the first student has taken fewer AP courses/tests and probably a less rigorous schedule overall on an absolute scale, but his/her achievements are also “capped” by what is available at his/her high school, so it can be hard to say whether s/he would do better than the second student in the second student’s school, or which student can be predicted to do better in college.

ucbalumnus · August 22, 2013, 2:36pm

For college admissions purposes, GPA calculated by high school may not necessarily be used, except indirectly through class rank, if class rank is used. (However, the high school’s GPA calculation will be relevant if you are looking at the Naviance listings or similar for your high school.)

Some colleges, like UCs and CSUs, recalculate GPAs for admissions purposes.

Others may just look at the transcript holistically to determine if the student’s academic achievement meets their standards.

Mom2twins · August 22, 2013, 2:37pm

A couple of repeated themes in this thread, IMO, that contribute to the frustration expressed by the “I want predictability” crowd: 1- a lack of understanding of what selective universities DO look at in objective stats (core class GPA STANDARDIZED to their scale, SAT/ACT test scores, rigor of classes as seen on transcript AND reported on common app by GC relative to the opportunities of the school, class rank (even if not reported, often estimated as a % by GC or inferred from scatter diagram). Add a lack of understanding of just how many applicants have stellar stats.

2- a desire to have transparency in the exact numeric value given to SUBJECTIVE admissions factors. Of course, this elusive value would have to change year to year as athletes, orchestra members, and other talents graduate. The number would even have to change during a single application cycle as one slot is filled for a 4.0, 2300 SAT all-state oboist with a great essay, so might the value for a less accomplished oboist with a 4.0/2300 be diminished if the orchestra doesn’t need any more oboists. Impossible to provide such minutia of detail to frustrated parents in the name of transparency. Add to the equation the complexity of comparing school district rigor, geographic, economic, racial, gender diversity, essay writing – all debatable for what value to assign. Such an algorithm would be unintelligable to most mere mortals. Describing these subjective factors as the “bulk” of the application, however, ignores the high objective stats these institutions still maintain in their common data sets.

I always told my children-- all 4.0, high scoring, involved kids – when it comes to the most selective schools, your stats will be similar to 10,000 other kids who all want 1000 slots (or 500 for HYP). It is not an indictment of the individual, or of the admissions process that MUST build a class by sorting out so many great applicants. There will always be options to kids who are realistic in their choices, financially and academically. Going overseas for merit aid is an option, but one hardly needs to go that far from home to find very good schools which will gladly educate Berkeley or Harvard’s disappointed applicants for a great discount.

Holistic Admissions at Berkeley

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