The problem @gallentjill is that the question you have posed has been argued on CC since the dinosaurs roamed the earth ;). There is and it will never be a question of this sort that doesn’t have a ton of debate.
As an astute poster who is no longer here said: EFC= every freaking cent. He was right, and paying for college money as far as the colleges are concerned is from past earnings, present earnings and future earning. People get the past and present but forget about future. Or don’t have past earnings saved and wonder how to pay from present earnings. It just isn’t possible in most cases.
The other thing that has happened is that every person (most of the CC posters) thinks that their child deserves to attend any university that they can get into. And that they can afford to pay or that the university should help them because they got into university that they can’t afford. The answer is that sometimes you can’t afford what you want.
@gallentjill, I think I get what you are saying, and as someone who has always been quick to point out that the oft repeated “we are middle class but would be full pay at any Ivy” line we hear so often is complete bunk, your point is somewhat valid. And yes, living in high cost of living areas is sometimes necessary, and it does kind of suck that colleges don’t seem to account for the fact that cost of living varies widely from place to place. And I say that freely acknowledging that my family benefits from the fact that we live in an area with a much lower cost of living, and to maintain our lifestyle in White Plains NY, Darian Ct or San Jose (where my college roommates live) would require significantly greater income, and my kids would therefore probably not get the financial aid they receive currently.
That said, I do think that a minimum of self awareness needs to be applied to these kinds of discussions. No one needs to live in Westchester county just because they work in Manhattan. There are plenty of places in Jersey, and probably on Staten Island among other places, that are far more affordable. For that matter, no one needs to spend $250 a month on a cell phone, send their kids to prep school or pay $300 a month for car insurance while taking public transportation to work either (not to pick on anyone in particular, just pulling examples). Not that these decisions are necessarily poor ones, but they are very clearly choices made by individuals; to live in the “right” suburb, to send the kids to the"right" high school, to have the newest i-phone or to drive really nice cars. I think many of the “we can’t afford college” posts miss the fact that most people in this country don’t have the luxury of making those types of choices. We have even seen posts where people bemoan how much easier it would be if they were poor, because then they wouldn’t be asked to give up some of their six figure income to send junior to college. It is really depressing.
Also as an aside, at least some colleges will take private school tuition paid for other kids into account when determining financial aid.
I don’t think this is about bemoaning having to give up part of the 6 figure income to send junior to college, I think it is more about where the EFC comes from and is it realistic. The figures I used do pertain to my costs but do not pertain to my income, my income is significantly higher than the example illustrated. Using my income as an example our EFC was in excess of $25,000 so for an example here, to get closer to the example given I will cut it in half.
I have taken a look at Northern Illinois, the closest state school to me and the COA is $26,109 so with an EFC in the $12,000 range (essentially what was left over in my example) there is still almost $14,000 more to come up with. No changing cell phone plans or getting rid of 1 car in a 2 car household is going to accomplish this. The Illinois schools are in dire straits economically so there is little to no help coming from there, where is the $14,000 going to come from?
One option is to commute which would drop the COA to roughly $16,000. Better but still above the left over in the example and the student loan would shore that up. What is not accounted for is a 45 minute+ commute plus maintenance and fuel costs on a car which would then necessitate replacement at an earlier date, driving more household costs up.
I am not bemoaning these costs, just trying to support the argument that in many cases the EFC for middle class families is unrealistic.
emilybee…good for you. Glad you are happy funding free college for those who make up to 125K a year. Many New Yorkers are not. It’s a tough pill to swallow to work incredibly hard to pay for your own children to go to college. We didn’t sign on to pay for other’s as well.
I wish more states (all states) would copy NY’s example. An educated population helps all of us esp if they include trade school options as well - not being from NY I’ve no idea if they do or not.
One has to chuckle a bit at the “mommy wars” (parent wars?) going on in these types of threads.
I remain glad that we (personally) were able to give our kids fantastic experiences growing up along with assisting with college using all resources available to us (including basic student loans for them). They had to keep finances in mind when selecting schools, but found they had terrific choices even if some hit the circular file because they were too expensive. The trips we took and the time we had together as a family when my kids were growing up were worth it all - far better (for us) than long commutes or not traveling and getting the education that only comes from seeing other places IRL. All under 100K per year most years.
It definitely helps that we don’t live in a HCOL area.
I appreciate your thoughtful post and I understand your view. For what its worth, I have seen people complain about how the poor have it easier and I think its vile. I have posted about that in other places. As I have said before, if people are really jealous of the FA given to poor families, its really not all that hard to become poor.
I think I would just like to see a little less vitriol aimed at people who come here innocently seeking advice on how to pay for college.
“Glad you are happy funding free college for those who make up to 125K a year. Many New Yorkers are not. It’s a tough pill to swallow to work incredibly hard to pay for your own children to go to college. We didn’t sign on to pay for other’s as well.”
@Empireapple, maybe you should move out of New York then - to a place like Oklahoma, Arizona or Kentucky for example - that doesn’t care about funding public education at any level (or just barely.)
Vitriol is unnecessary but pointing out that $100K isn’t lower middle class IS helpful IMO. If someone is operating under the false assumption that they are as an adult, the record does need to be set straight. It’s only practical.
@gallentjill When I hear people complain about Welfare, Snap, Section 8, Pell Grants, LiHeap, or any similar program I’ve always suggested those programs are open to all who qualify. Folks just need to drop their income/assets and they too can become a “winner” having life “easy.”
Interestingly enough, I’ve yet to see anyone take me up on it.
Personally, I fail to understand the jealousy of it all. I rather like being able to pay all my “normal” bills myself and having some left over for charity instead of being on the constant receiving end. When it comes to college costs, I’m still glad (as I posted before) that there are both merit and need-based options folks can use as fits them. We’ve used both ourselves. I expect to contribute to scholarship funds so others can benefit as part of my charity giving soon considering my youngest is now a senior in college.
I agree completely @creekland. Personally, I feel that money spent on helping to create a better educated population is some of the only tax expenditures I’m happy about.
there’s an unnecessary expense right there. Plenty of more affordable cell plan options. No one “needs” smart phones with data plans.
Where I live, where my kids live, where many people live, 1.5 hour commutes are pretty common. Here, public transportation stinks, so the commute is frequently in a car, burning up gas, wear and tear on one’s car and nerves, and unable to relax, read or get work done. A friend recently moved to an apartment near a rail stop so she could ditch the car and the stress. She said it frequently took her at least 20 minutes just to go the 1.5 miles from where her then apartment was up to the main street, where then the traffic really began. A 12 mile commute can, sadly, easily take well over an hour on many days.
When people start to live frugally and start to save/invest money when they are single before they have those bigger expenses (and hopefully aren’t paying off huge college loans), they can start to build a nest egg and enjoy the joy of compound interest. Even if its a small amount per month. It adds up. Trying to start saving when one has a house, a big mortgage, lessons to pay for, etc, isn’t wise.
If a family has many other expenses (caring for an ill family member or aging parent, etc) they might be better off applying to PROFILE schools where the opportunity to address these additional expenses is noted, or ask for professional judgment. It can be done.
$250 is a lot for a cell phone plan. Even from expensive Verizon, $200 gets you four lines of unlimited (though may be throttled after 22GB per line) data, talk, and text: https://www.verizonwireless.com/plans/verizon-plan/ . And there are significantly lower cost options available from competing carriers, particularly for someone whose data use is less heavy most of the time.
I took that poster’s choice of $250 for a cell plan to mean that they were maybe paying for cellphones for a family of , say, four. Still, an unnecessary expense, and many cheaper options. A friend uses cricket (AT&T side plan) and other use inexpensive T-mobile plans.
It always surprises me when these threads come along that nobody makes the point that in those high cost of living areas, wages, as well as prices, tend to be higher. So that job you getting paid $100,000 for in New York City? You might be getting paid $75,000 for in Des Moines, IA. Wages are a part of the cost of living as well. A quick check shows that the average teacher in New York is paid $68,000 and the average teacher in Des Moines is paid $53,300.
@lololu Yes, and for the most part FA does not take that into account, so the New Yorker gets less aid, even if the family is paying twice as much as mortgage. Local college costs do not necessary vary as much by region, because some of the states where incomes are lower also provide less funding for higher ed. It’s annoying for the $100K people; for those teachers you mentioned it can be the difference between paying for a kid’s college or not.
It’s a complicated process to put it mildly. However, the smartest kids in NYC, no matter how poor, can attend a high school which is way better than the typical middle class suburban high school. Their options are certainly better than in many other US cities. There really is NO need to spend $ on prep school. It’s a choice; that’s her point.
Plus, here kids have the option of living at home and attending a CUNY. They can usually get to it via subway… There’s no need to do 2 years at a community college first. Again, you can and some do so. But by and large CUNYs are affordable and so you can attend a 4 year college for 4 years. Plus, the tuition waiver for families is available at SUNYs as well as CUNYs.
@gallentjill, I agree with you that less vitriol is always good. And again, I do think you make a valid point. I just think we should acknowledge that people fortunate enough to make 100k plus, no matter where they reside, are overall doing pretty well, much better than most. I am at times as myopic as anyone, and have been known to grumble this time of year about sending my annual check to Uncle Sam. My wife constantly reminds me that it is better to have to send a check than to wait by the mailbox for the refund check in order to get the car fixed, replace the water heater, or whatever. A little perspective is good for the soul (not that I would ever admit that to her).
@iaparent, I at least do not mean to suggest that paying for college should be easy for people in the 100k plus range. In particular, I really feel that people who are sitting on vastly inflated real estate, like my old roomie in San Jose whose house is now worth several times what he paid for it, can get killed because their paper assets are well beyond what they can reasonably afford without taking on debt. But at the end of the day, he can cash in some of that appreciated equity and write a check if he has to. And people making six figures just are not really middle class.