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<p>Fine. Now explain how societal preferences are wrong. American “society” prefers football over soccer. Action movies over “art” movies. If the cause of societal preferences are the sum of personal preferences, then I don’t see how it is an issue.</p>
<p>@BetterThanYouAre - “Voluntary social standards?” Social standards, yes, but hardly voluntary. Women don’t choose to be wolf-whistled at when they’re walking down the street, asked to sleep with their boss to get a promotion, or treated like objects. </p>
<p>You say female athletes aren’t as interesting to watch - could that be because they’re taught since birth that they should worry more over their appearance than how strong they are? Men are naturally stronger, but strength isn’t everything in the vast majority of sports. Did you ever think that maybe some female athletes aren’t as good because they have had to put up with so much more nonsense about being “unfeminine?”</p>
<p>Women and men are different, I agree with you there. But stating that oppression no longer exists is, frankly, a load of BS. You can’t just argue that that’s just the way women and men are, that we’re all born a certain way, and that this is just “seeing sexism where it doesn’t exist.” The fact is that society has made us all conform to a certain extent.</p>
<p>Does it have no effect when girls are told to play with dolls, and boys are told to play with toy swords - and boys, but not girls, are let off when they act violently, because “boys will be boys”? Does it have no effect when Auntie praises her nephews for being strong but her nieces for being pretty? Does it have no effect when the guys in the gym laugh at the girl who’s working out for being “butch”? </p>
<p>Also, what exactly is a “feminazi”? Most feminists will agree that the term feminist means someone who supports the equal treatment of women. This does not mean saying that they’re “the same”, it means treating men and women with equal respect. The term “feminazi” is as strange as the term “anti-racist-nazi” or whatever else you can think up. I also think that the terms “Nazi”, and others of its ilk, should not be used lightly.</p>
<p>It’s easy to just dismiss claims of sexism as the feminazis creating a bit of a fuss about nothing again, but you sound fairly reasonable, so for the sake of “taking the high road”, I will try to explain. For the record, societal preferences shouldn’t be adhered to just for the sake of it. For a very long time, for example, American “society” oppressed blacks, and there were people who would’ve said that blacks were naturally dumb, because “society” had taught them, and the people around them, that that was true.</p>
<p>There’s a reason men’s sports are more interesting to watch, it’s called testosterone (aka better physical performance in this case).</p>
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<p>HA, and women aren’t? Have you stepped foot on a college campus?</p>
<p>Who on earth would want to be known as what stargazerlilies posted?</p>
<p>Men are stereotyped too, you know. I don’t approve of that either.</p>
<p>Regarding the whole testosterone thing - I could be wrong, but I’m fairly sure I read something a while back that stated that the hormone did not directly cause aggression and so forth. You can look it up on Wikipedia, if you want.</p>
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<p>All I asked was that you stop name-calling, especially in regards to Nazi Germany, and especially when talking to people whose relatives burned in crematoriums there.</p>
<p>Finally a respectful post from a feminist, python. All the so called other “feminists” have quickly resulted to insulting me personally.</p>
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<p>No, it has nothing to do with that. I can’t 100% pinpoint it, but if I had to guess I would say it is the sytle of play that results from inherent physical differences between the sexes. I can say with 100% confidence though that women aren’t “holding back” in an attempt to maintain a “feminine ideal” just from the female athletes that I know.</p>
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<p>Despite those exaggerated scenarios, those all come down to voluntary individual preferences and nothing being “forced”. Those preferences ultimately stem from biological preferences hardwired into our brains from many thousands of years of evolution.</p>
<p>My final point is that ever since anti-discrimination laws, there has been no oppression (an example of real oppression would be the mutilation that girls are subjected to in some african countries). </p>
<p>I will reiterate; society isn’t forcing anyone to do anything. The “societal norms” that some women (and men) perceive as a daunting force? Well, they mostly stem from physiological and psychological inherent differences between the sexes. And most important, no one is legally bound by any of those differences and choose to act because they want to.</p>
<p>And leah, how do you think my polish relatives faired in WWII? Not well. But it’s irrelevant, and as far as I’m concerned it is cowardice to try and censor (mandated or self) a word just because of historical connotations associated with it if it is not being used in an insulting manner.</p>
<p>how does rape and oppresion correlate together??? There are thousands of men (yes, men!) who get raped every year by WOMEN (yes, the so-called gentle, caring gender) that 1) go unreported or 2) most people just think that is a lie. I know, i know, some of you may find it hard believe that a WOMEN could rape a MAN, the physically dominant gender, but it does happen and nothing is done about it. </p>
<p>Moreover, in education systems, boys are descriminated against there two; why are there more programmes to help girls who do bad in math and sciences than there are for boys who do bad in english and history? On that same note, there are more programmes targeted towards helping girls go to college than there are for boys and that can be clearly seen in the male-to-female ratio in colleges. Why couldn’t there simply be a programme to help both genders instead of just for the girls???</p>
<p>IMPO, men are equally–if not more-- opressed than women. I just think that women just like to b**** and moan about every little thing that happens to them and look for loop holes or short cuts instead of trying to overcome this so-called “opression” that men (and even our society) has placed on them.</p>
<p>lol, don’t know how I forgot to mention that. there’s a million engineering scholarships around… if you’re a woman.</p>
<p>seriously I do think that it’s switched and that men are more oppressed than women nowadays. Especially in school and the legal system.</p>
<p>Men and women are EQUAL by law what more can you ask for?</p>
<p>sexual assault - go to court
if someone discriminates against you - go to court </p>
<p>Guys sometimes whistle at me, but I do the same, not going to lie at my bf’s Lacrosse games, I scream at the guys o but there is nothing wrong with that because I’m a girl. There are soo many double standards it goes both ways. </p>
<p>Why are women objectified in the media? well simple sex sells, if i want to sell a car, I’m going to get a hot chick, put her in a bikini and call it a day. In this market economy it’s all about money, some people might see this as oppression but it’s business. It’s funny that the chick in the bikini does not feel oppressed but some random girl on the outside will be screaming “omg stop the sexism”.</p>
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<p>It isn’t just strength. Men have a completely more developed musculo-skeletal system. Name one sport where this doesn’t make a huge difference.</p>
<p>maybe table tennis. even then, it still helps.</p>
<p>OMG! LEGAL SYSTEMS! They are put contra men! A man steals a baby, goes to jail for 10 years; a woman screaming that she cant have children because she is barren steals a baby and she gets like 2 years max if anything.</p>
<p>A male teacher sleeps with one of his students and there is mayhem and chaos; a female teacher does this and USUALLY (dont remember the name of it, but this one lady got a really bad sentencing!) nothing happens.</p>
<p>A freakin’ crazy lady gives her baby a bj and all they do is take her kids away; a man has intercorse with a girl and he is 1) shunned (cant spell to save me life) and 2) sent jail past what i can count of me fingers!</p>
<p>A woman hits a man (in a non-joking manner), and some take it as a joke; a man hits a woman (even in a joking manner and everyone knows it) most likely gets arrested and is looked down upon.</p>
<p>Where is the justice in the world??? Why cant they (we?) just be treated equally???</p>
<p>“It’s funny that the chick in the bikini does not feel oppressed but some random girl on the outside will be screaming “omg stop the sexism”.”</p>
<p>maybe she does feel oppressed but wants the money anyway?</p>
<p>“seriously I do think that it’s switched and that men are more oppressed than women nowadays. Especially in school and the legal system.”</p>
<p>how have you ever been “oppressed” as a male?</p>
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<p>are you joking? can you not read?</p>
<p>We are not treated equally, I think that’s the root of the anger, but we don’t live in a perfect world, and everyone is trying to hold everyone else to such standards. Like I said life is unfair, but people just won’t listen to that, shall I spam it:</p>
<p>LIFE IS UNFAIR
LIFE IS UNFAIR
LIFE IS UNFAIR</p>
<p>There will be ignorant, stupid, irrational people everywhere what can you do about it? Nothing, ignore them, tell them the errors of their thinking.</p>
<p>when has a woman ever gotten away with sleeping with a male student?</p>
<p>“A freakin’ crazy lady gives her baby a bj and all they do is take her kids away; a man has intercorse with a girl and he is 1) shunned (cant spell to save me life) and 2) sent jail past what i can count of me fingers!”</p>
<p>you think male pedophiles should be let off easy because ONE lady got a lighter punishment?</p>
<p>“A woman hits a man (in a non-joking manner), and some take it as a joke; a man hits a woman (even in a joking manner and everyone knows it) most likely gets arrested and is looked down upon.”</p>
<p>and it’s not a joke because 22% of women are beaten by their husbands</p>
<p>I feel as if i have been oppresed as a man (boy?)!</p>
<p>Me friend and I, just for fun, decide to see who can get a job at the school office. We both have EXACTLY the same qualifications and she got the job orginizing (once again, cant spell for me life) files and I dont. Why? I come to find out that boys “have horrible organization skills and are too one-tracked minded to do the job.” What kind of buggery is this??? Im just as good as organizing as her (maybe even better!) and i know a lot of guys who do a lot better job than she would and they all got rejected too! Not too say that Im upset that i didnt get the dingy job (my friend hates the boss), but i would’ve like to have been given the same oprotunity as my friend was.</p>
<p>guys are also oppressed, so many examples do we really need to go threw them all</p>
<p>let’s all agree that LIFE IS UNFAIR and everyone gets screwed by society one way or the other.</p>
<p>***??? MEN also get abused by their wives! But do to love social and cultural restaints that have been placed on every, many men wouldn’t dare to speak out against their abusive wives because they would be looked down upon as less than a man. There exisist nothing in this world that has been down to woman that hasn’t been done to a man and possible even with the same frequency.</p>
<p>No, im not saying that the male pedophile should get a LIGHTER sentence at all, IMPO i think they should be put on death row! I just think that the woman should get the EXACT same sentence for the crime that a man did; why should the man be treated harsher?</p>
<p>The female athletes you know certainly sound confident enough in themselves not to conform, and I applaud them for that. But I don’t think that you can really infer that some women aren’t “holding back”, just from the people that you know. The fact is that women may sometimes face discouragement due to their gender. And discouragement, no matter what about, is always going have a negative effect on some people. </p>
<p>Men are stronger, yes, and they have a more developed musculo-skeletal system. But that doesn’t necessarily make them more interesting to watch; we’re going a little into personal preferences here, but BetterThanYouAre stated that “While the male players are making flashy passes and dunks, the female players take the ball and at best make a simple lay up.” </p>
<p>Now, I don’t know much about basketball, so I could be entirely wrong, but how is stuff like this affected by physical strength? </p>
<p>If you look at a sport like tennis, in the old days, most tennis buffs will agree with you that female players like Graf and Seles were just as interesting to watch as their male counterparts. As more money came into the sport, the media began to laud players like Kournikova solely based on how they looked, and sponsorship became a big deal. Nowadays, the women’s game is far from what it used to be. Is this partly because people make just as much a big deal over Sharapova’s dress as they do over her skill? </p>
<p>@BetterThanYouAre: I wouldn’t be so quick to put stuff down to genetics. You stated that “Despite those exaggerated scenarios, those all come down to voluntary individual preferences and nothing being “forced”. Those preferences ultimately stem from biological preferences hardwired into our brains from many thousands of years of evolution.”</p>
<p>I ask you this: do you think that women and men would behave exactly the same way as they do now if we weren’t both pigeonholed into behaving a certain way right from a very young age? My examples weren’t exaggerated, btw - I don’t know how it is in America, but over here in Britain, stereotyping is rife, and both sexes suffer as a consequence.</p>
<p>Now, there are plenty of studies that cover this topic, but it’s obviously difficult to study children before they’ve been affected by this sort of thing. Even five-year-olds have pink ponies if they’re female and Action Man if they’re male. You can argue that a kid chooses what they want to buy, but isn’t a girl more likely to buy something if she sees a girl in the ad etc., and vice versa?</p>
<p>A lot of the time, people (I mean everyone here) aren’t even aware of the way that they may be conforming.</p>
<p>I do agree that men are in some cases discriminated against - for example, I think “affirmative action” - fast-tracking women to the top of the corporate ladder over similarly qualified men - is not the best of ideas. Men should also, in my opinion, get more paternity leave, if they ask for it. And it’s awful seeing a guy refuse to do something like cooking or drawing that he obviously likes, or even cry, because he’s worried about not being perceived as “a real man.”</p>
<p>Also, since we have just agreed that men are generally stronger than women, if a girl hits a guy she’s less likely to hurt him than if the reverse is true, which is probably why she will get a lighter punishment than he would have, because she did not do as much damage.</p>