How common is getting "shut out" for "reasonably good" students?

twoinanddone · March 6, 2014, 4:01pm

My daughter attended a charter school that ‘required’ every senior (all 25 of them!) to apply to 3 colleges, 3 scholarships, and 3 grant programs. They worked on them at school so yes, required. They could apply to any programs they wanted to, but even the boy who had already signed up for the marines had to complete the applications.

There were a lot of things I didn’t like about the school (my daughter was in the middle school program) but I did think they did an excellent job of teaching the students how to apply and what opportunities were available to them. If the students didn’t go to college immediately, at least they knew how to apply. They also each had very detailed letters of recommendation to take with them and available if needed.

sschickens · March 6, 2014, 4:02pm

That’s fascinating. There are no restrictions or limits for kids at my D’s school. In fact, I never met her GC, and based on what my D has told me, she wouldn’t have been much help anyway. We came up with her college application list with zero assistance from her school. My D has been accepted to the 4 schools she has heard from, and we are waiting to hear from the other 6. This ‘shut out’ thread is really very eye-opening to me, as my D is the oldest, so this is our first time going thru the process. I can’t imagine the stress I’ve heard described here.

Consolation · March 6, 2014, 4:06pm

Sally, it is all very well and good to talk about the brilliant kid being able to have a relationship with the brilliant prof. What are they going to do in class in the case of extreme misfit? Have a conversation between just the two of them?

When my S was a HS sophomore, he shadowed a philosophy professor at a local college who also happened to be his GC at the time. (All the sophomores were required to shadow someone, and philosophy was his interest at the time. The GC had a PhD in philosophy from Cambridge.) S was accustomed to taking philosophy classes at CTY. When he got home, I asked him how it went. He told me that it was interesting, but that he could see that after a certain point the students could not follow the prof. Bear in mind that he was a sophomore in HS. Exactly how rewarding do you think it would have been for him to attend that college?

blossom · March 6, 2014, 4:07pm

let’s invite some of the college professors on this board to describe the difference teaching a class on Greek Tragedy to a room filled with kids with verbal SAT’s of 500 vs. 700. It would be wonderful to pretend that there is no difference since the professor went to Harvard, has a PhD from Michigan, and were it not for the crummy job market for Classics scholars, would likely be at a top 50 university.

MYOS1634 · March 6, 2014, 4:10pm

Whenhen’s point is very good. Look, the professors are likely to be from excellent universities everywhere. They may be great researchers (but if they’re on a 4-4 schedule it’s unlikely they have time to do any research, and research skills do wither very quickly). They may or may not be great teachers, you have those about everywhere except top LACs where they’re specifically recruited because of these skills (teaching highly gifted students in an innovative way).
The difference will be your peers.
At a directional that won’t be named, in a class supposedly involving 25 above-average students, on any given day, over half the class hadn’t done the reading and most couldn’t discuss it. Many papers were late. Half the class didn’t show for the final exam. Out of the 4 students that were consistently working and trying to improve, two decided to transfer because it was so frustrating for them, one was an older student who held a full-time job along with taking 12 credits and blamed her younger classmates’ immaturity for wasting their/her time, and one just had no other choice due to finances and parents but felt really bad about being stuck there. The students who decided to transfer discovered that they could have received some merit money at the non-elite but top 125 colleges they chose (I stay within the 3.5/27ACT descriptor). And, no, at this university, you can’t easily “find your group”, because a handful of students among thousands can’t just “be found”. It’s even worse if half or more of the student population lives off campus, sometimes as far as 45mn away. (And the handful of “peers” try to hide because after a while, they appear as the party-pooper/know-it-all/teacher’s pet who will set the curve too high because s/he’s done all the readings etc. So in order to fit in, these students end up more silent than they should and trying to hide what they know.)
Such an environment can be stiffling for some students, and it can be deeply alienating for others. It can also be a huge demotivator - top students can get A’s without trying, stop working, lose their work ethics, etc. It happens a lot, alas. Finally, if very few students ever make it into a med school or a law school, how strong do you think advising will be? And forget about applying to national fellowships.
I’m not even talking of the gay kid in Idaho or Arkansas, the whimsical kid, the kid who dreams of Broadway/Mayo/nuclear engineering, the kid who thinks discussing Garamont vs. Tahoma is fascinating, the kid who wants to study English when everyone around thinks it’s B.S, the non-athletic kid at a football-obsessed university, etc. Fit matters. Having academic peers with similar drive and goals does matter. Having an atmosphere that’s conducive to expressing yourself and growing as an adult does matter.
Or, as Hunt said

I totally agree that the obsession with rankings and top 25 universities/LACs is ridiculous, but it doesn’t mean all universities are the same and all flagships will provide a satisfactory experience for all. Within a “grouping” of about 20-25 colleges, I don’t think ranking matters. Finally, yes, you can be successful regardless of where you went to college, but optimally, if it’s possible, students should be able to spend 4 years that won’t be miserable.
But there’s a huge difference between flagships, there are huge differences between peer groups, there are huge differences between resources and opportunities, and I don’t think it’s right to pretend otherwise.
Can some students be happy at UWyoming? Sure. But not ALL students will be. And the public flagship will not be appropriate for all students.

I agree with Marysidney and Blossom on this. Furthermore, if you’ve been made to “stick out”, having 4 years of finally being one among many can be liberating.
It’s not just a matter of being “brilliant” or “smart”. Sure, there are kids at Penn State that are as smart as kids at Smith and vice versa.
Kids at Stanford, Brown, Oberlin, and Washington&Lee are all super smart. But these universities are very different and the kids who attend, on average, have different mindsets, goals, and drives. So it’s not a matter of being a snob and thinking some students are too smart for a public university. Or, if you prefer, think of Earlham, Wabash, and UIndiana: these kids are all equally smart but the place that’s best for them clearly isn’t interchangeable.

This brings up an issue that isn’t discussed often enough: financial shut outs.
Community college may NOT be the cheapest option. In some states, community colleges do a very poor job of preparing students for transferring - at a community college near where I used to live, calc1 was the highest math class offered, and once a year, because most students needed remedial work. So if you were a3.5/ACT27 student and wanted to attend a community college for the purpose of transferring to the flagship, there just weren’t classes for you to take after 1st semester and those classes honestly were more like high school “CP level” classes ; as an alternative, you had to move 1hr from there, renting a place, etc., and even if there were some articulation agreements your odds of making it were very very low (commuting just wouldn’t have been possible in the winter). For some students, the flagship and public universities may be unaffordable: even with Pell and federal loans, some in-state costs may be too high. What happens to these students?

Hunt · March 6, 2014, 4:16pm

What I hear from students is to the contrary. Of course, this may vary from place to place. And it’s not really a matter of “dumbing down”–it’s a matter of teaching in a manner that is appropriate to the preparation of the students. Also, I think perhaps your point about grading is more true for the sciences–but I don’t think it’s true at all for the humanities. I think the high-performing student at Towson is going to be frustrated in the classroom, but as you point out, he may be able to compensate for that somewhat by working with professors beyond the classroom.

But is it really good for him? I don’t think so. Every time the Olympics come around, there’s somebody who had no money and trained by running up and down a mountain with rocks in his pockets. But that doesn’t mean that this is the best way to train for the Olympics.

Edited to add: Another possibility is that the high-achieving student who goes to Towson will enter as a junior because of AP and the like, and the ability to skip over intro classes will also provide some compensation for compromises in the overall experience. That may be a real benefit for some people.

ucbalumnus · March 6, 2014, 4:17pm

Perhaps an elite college-prep high school needs to have limits because seniors there (all of whom are applying to four year colleges) may otherwise tend to apply to lots of super-reach schools and may ignore safeties. Also, applying to the super-reach schools (and many other private schools) tend to require considerable support from the high school (transcripts, recommendations, mid-year reports), so managing the workload of counselors and teachers in support of seniors’ college applications can be a factor.

It may be different for a typical public school where perhaps a third or so of seniors apply to four year colleges, and most of them apply mainly to in-state public universities where less or no support from the high school at application time is needed.

Vladenschlutte · March 6, 2014, 4:19pm

No, there are exceptional people who don’t get perfect SAT scores and there might be a few ordinary people who do. Generally though higher SAT scores indicate a higher probability that the person is exceptional than lower SAT scores. If you were considering 2 people, Person A and Person B, and A had an SAT of 2350 and A had an SAT of 1600, which one do you think has a higher probability of being brilliant?

blossom · March 6, 2014, 4:20pm

Forgot to add- at some colleges, many of the offerings are from “service” departments. The courses and faculty are there because the distribution requirements force kids to study a foreign language, or history, or literature, or to take a physical science. I’m not damning the faculty- they may well be brilliant. But the actual academic offerings in these departments cannot compare-- even with brilliant faculty-- to those of a university where these subjects are actually taught and studied for their own sake, not to fulfill a humanities distribution requirement for the kid getting a degree in accounting.

Sorry that it’s elitist. But it is not the same to study Classics or Renaissance Art or French literature in a classroom with kids who are there to check off a box- particularly since that’s what HS was like. A bunch of kids in a room texting their friends and playing candy crush while a brilliant professor lectures on a fascinating topic.

Yes- for some kids they will make it work. But it’s not elitist to describe this situation as sub-optimal from the kids perspective.

sally305 · March 6, 2014, 4:25pm

But YOUR son could follow the prof. So he was getting something out of it, correct?

Like I said, I understand how most of us PREFER our kids to be surrounded by peers of similar academic aptitude. But we (and they) don’t always get what we want. The subject of this thread is the “shutout” for good students who perhaps miscalculated their chances or were otherwise unlucky in the application process.

I have a good friend who does exactly that. And she does complain about the lack of motivation or aptitude of some students, particularly in her lower-level, large lecture courses. She also complains about the international students who are ill-prepared to handle the classics curriculum based on the academic preparation they have had in their home countries (many particularly struggle with writing). She has students with 500 verbal SATs and students with 700+. It’s not perfect. But each year she has a few gems of students who become captivated by the study of classics and push themselves to learn as much as they can. They become classics majors despite her protestations that they will be hard pressed to find jobs in the field. And in her smaller seminar classes, she has students who want to engage in the kind of intellectual dialogue that she herself had when she was a student.

ucbalumnus · March 6, 2014, 4:29pm

That is true even at some more selective colleges that are typically seen favorably on these forums. The HSA department at Harvey Mudd and the science faculty at Sarah Lawrence are teaching courses that exist for breadth purposes, not because many students at those colleges focus on those subjects.

Of course, at many colleges, there are many students taking English composition, math, and beginner/intermediate foreign language courses as service courses either for general requirements or in support of their majors.

MYOS1634 · March 6, 2014, 4:43pm

There’s no such thing as “content” existing on its own. Professors create content based on the university’s norm, and that norm correlates with what can reasonably be expected from students.
At some universities, Calc BC will allow you to skip Calc 1, at others it’ll place you straight into Calc3. At many universities, the norm is for students to start in precalculus with “advanced” students starting in calculus and a large numbers starting in “remedial math”. At others, the norm is to start in Calc 1 with 'advanced" students starting in Calc 2 or 3.
At some math-heavy universities, it wouldn’t be unheard of for students to spend 5 or 6 hours on a weekly problem set. At another university, when surveyed, students in majority said they gave up after ~20mn on a problem set. (The professors, jokingly, had bet 1 hour, thinking it very low. They were stunned.)
At top flagships, level 3 in a foreign language is AP-to-post AP level. At good flagships, level 3 corresponds to HS FL4or 5 (AP for the best students). At lower level flagships, most students give up after level 2 and level 3 is seen as “advanced” - with few such classes offered. At colleges with strong language programs, virtually all students enter at level 3-4 (AP and post AP) and most classes are “real” advanced classes, including high-level (post-advanced) classes for post-study abroad students.
At some universities, the reading norm is 80 pages per class for a first year humanities/social science course. At some flagships, the norm is 15 pages for freshmen and about 35-40 for seniors. At some colleges, the basic first-year writing seminar requirement is a 20-page research paper. At others, it’s a 5-page paper.
A discussion class where hardly anyone’s done the reading is not the same as a discussion section where 3/4 students have, with actual highlighting of text, jotted notes, and opinions to express.

ucbalumnus · March 6, 2014, 4:52pm

Still, regardless of the norm at a given college, there are typically offerings for a range of students with regard to their math ability and preparation. These typically include normal frosh calculus and sophomore level math (multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations). Colleges with weaker-in-math students may offer more precalculus remedial courses or easier versions of “calculus for business majors”, while colleges with stronger-in-math students may offer honors math courses (though the strongest students may jump right into junior level math courses if they are interested in math).

Even Harvard offers a range of math courses ranging from Ma-Mb (a calculus-AB-like course) to 55a-55b (a third level honors sophomore math sequence).

Yes, rigor in humanities and social studies courses may be harder to assess from just looking at course catalogs, and many of the courses are not the kind where more advanced students can just start in more advanced courses like math or foreign language.

sally305 · March 6, 2014, 4:54pm

MYOS, I wasn’t talking about math or other STEM subjects. I do believe that is a different thing. (Having said that, there is a strong contingent on this site who would say that engineering at state flagships is as good as or better than that at more elite schools.)

As for languages, you are assuming that “top” students continue with a language they started in high school. For many students at many universities (especially large state flagships that teach dozens of languages), college is the first chance they have to study Russian, Swahili, Mandarin, etc. So the fact that some kids come in at a higher level is immaterial. It’s how far they can go within the curriculum offered that matters.

Erin_s_Dad · March 6, 2014, 4:55pm

That’s why some majors (like engineering) have separate accreditation requirements. So that the Content DOES exist on its own. If the student can’t keep up they fall by the way side.

sschickens · March 6, 2014, 5:08pm

UCB, My D is in the IB program at a very highly-rated public, so there are quite a few kids (my D being one of them) applying to top-tier schools. I didn’t think applying to these schools was any different than applying to a state school, other than possibly a few supplemental essays. In fact, the app for our flagship was probably the most problematic, as they do not accept the common app. The transmission of transcripts, recommendations, mid-year reports was facilitated by her high school, and was done in the same fashion regardless of the school being applied to.

mom2and · March 6, 2014, 5:11pm

Overall, it is pretty rare for a “reasonably good” student to get no acceptances, unless they only pick reach or high match schools on their list. As to being able to pay, a larger set of students may well find out that their anticipated financial support did not come through. They may be without an affordable school. There is a lot of bad advice out there: don’t worry about money when you apply, privates are cheaper than publics etc.

As to a safety for the very bright kid that wants to study humanities at a LAC, it may be harder to find a safety that will meet their academic needs, is affordable and provides the LAC environment. Unfortunately, many students find themselves in that position - the money just isn’t there. However, most public Us will have have a department in most disciplines. Once a student gets past the intro level courses, he or she will find the like-minded kids that will be interested in the subject matter. Rare that a student will take a 300-level classics class and not be “into it”.

Even in the fly-over states, most of the State Us (flagship) are ranked in the top 150 or at least the top 200. Those schools will still have a cohort of very bright, engaged students that could not afford to go farther away or who did not want to go far. With over 3000 colleges, that still puts most of those schools in the top 5%. These includes Wyoming, Idaho, and Mississippi.

If the discussion is a top school vs an un-ranked or very low ranked satellite campus, the argument regarding fit is more plausible - it may be hard to find the level of education, but not clear that will be the case for a flagship. If a student can’t afford the in-state State U fees but is not eligible for financial aid, their choices are more limited and finding a safety that meets their educational and financial need is more difficult. That doesn’t seem to be the case for most CC families - it is the private that is unaffordable and the flagship that may be doable.

In most cases, it is not a tragedy to go to a school that is not a “perfect fit”. It may be “better” in some ways to go to the expensive LAC and easier for some students to find their people, but a large public probably has those people as well, they just may be harder to find. I know kids at our big state U that are majoring in philosophy and very happy and engaged. In those circumstance, a larger State school, even with only a couple of professors in the department, may provide a better educational environment as there are going to be other smart, engaged students who couldn’t afford to go out of state. There is no such thing as only one way to obtain your education.

Hunt · March 6, 2014, 5:19pm

I guess my point here is that the way to avoid being shut out isn’t to apply to all eight Ivies plus a state directional university as a safety. A better strategy is to apply to a range of schools including academic reaches, matches and safeties–keeping finances in mind as well.

sally305 · March 6, 2014, 5:24pm

^Completely agree, Hunt.

Roger_Dooley · March 6, 2014, 5:26pm

Every year we see some members who end up with no acceptances. This is almost always a case of bad counseling (or ignored advice given by a competent counselor). Every student, even a valedictorian with awesome SATs, needs a safety school. If finances are a concern, then there should be a financial safety, too. Students who apply only to Ivies and similar schools are setting themselves up for a problematic April.

The safety school isn’t a last, undesirable resort.

Rather, the safety should be a very good school that may not be the student’s top choice but would still be perfectly acceptable. Ideally, a safety acceptance should be in the bag long before the end of March - this takes a lot of pressure off the student (and parents) as the admission season drags on. In Indiana, for example, we had some great schools in the state system (IU, Purdue, Ball State) - relatively affordable, often some merit aid, and usually quick rolling decisions. Even less selective state schools often have honors programs that improve the experience for a good student.

Adding a few “ballpark” schools (where acceptance is very likely, but not certain) can provide an additional cushion if the safety choices are OK but not great.

In the event a student does come up with no usable acceptances, all is not lost. At CC, we always feature a list of schools that still have openings in late spring. :)

How common is getting "shut out" for "reasonably good" students?

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