How common is getting "shut out" for "reasonably good" students?

Parents Forum
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<p>How common is getting “shut out” for “reasonably good” students?</p>

<p>“Shut out” means no acceptances by April 1 to schools which are affordable. Note that an acceptance to a school, but not the desired major, can count as a rejection if changing into the desired major after enrolling is very difficult.</p>

<p>A “reasonably good” student would have at least a 3.5 unweighted HS GPA in a good college-prep curriculum (4 years or 4th level in English and math; 3-4 years or 3rd-4th level in history/social-studies, science, and foreign language; art or music) with at least some honors or advanced courses in subjects of interest, and test scores of at least 600 on each SAT section or 27 on each ACT section.</p>

<p>Obviously, getting “shut out” would mean that such a student made an overly optimistic application list to begin with. But how common is this mistake?</p>

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<p>You are defining “shut out” very generously with your description. I know lots of kids who don’t get admitted to an impacted program or school at a flagship U, so even though the cost is affordable, the family has not thought through Plan B.</p>

<p>And I don’t agree that it’s all that obvious that the cause is an overly optimistic application list. Sometimes stuff happens- mostly financial, which is usually out of a kids control. Sometimes the Guidance Counselors give really bad advice. Sometimes the family refuses to consider options which are a little further from home geographically and are affordable- so kid ends up getting rejected from the close by option with no viable backup plan. And not because the kid threw in a wild card application- kid was totally qualified by the numbers, but if every single kid from his or her HS applies, SOMEONE is going to get rejected. Northwestern doesn’t want to accept every single qualified applicant from New Trier, Evanston High, etc-- because then the kids DON’T want to go there, since it will “feel just like HS”.</p>

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<p>One of my daughter’s very good friends in the 2011 cycle, came very close. She applied to 12 schools, all high match, or reaches (Ivys), with the exception of UT for which she was an auto admit and ONLY applied because the school counselor literally begged her to, simply as a safety net. She was in the top 2% of the class, very strong leadership ECs, NMF, 2310 SAT, 35 ACT, more APs that anyone needs, etc, what I would have to assume as strong essays based on previous things I had read, etc. Denied at every single school except UT. </p>

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<p>^^^Just FYI she is blossoming at UT, socially and in her educational pursuits!</p>

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<p>I have a friend whose son applied to all 8 Ivies only and was not accepted at any of them. He’s doing a gap year this year.</p>

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<p>I don’t know many kids who were truly “shut out”, but I know many parents and kids who felt they were, as the only schools that they were focused on getting entry did not accept them. They went through the motions of applying to safeties and matches while all the time had their minds, hearts, set on the high reaches, and had pretty much convinced themselves that one would pan out and it did not. </p>

<p>I know a number of kids for whom BC or Holy Cross were bitter disappointments. Both excellent schools, but these kids were way up there in stats and they expected ivy league or other highly selective school acceptances, as did their parents. I remember a number of them buoyed by the EA acceptance at BC, which then became their safety, and then that was it. The high reaches all WLed or rejected them. BC is nothing to sneeze at, and for many kids here, the Holy Grail school, so complaining about this is not socially acceptable, but yes, this has happened each year. I expect to see it again.</p>

<p>In one very sad situation, a friend of mine’s DD was accepted to a number of choices, but none of the schools guaranteed to meet need, were all private, high priced schools and none of them came up with anything close to what their EFC was. They were certain she’d be accepted, as she was, to some wonderful voice program as she was quite a talented young woman, but they expected to get enough money to make it work, as the student was on scholarship at a pricey private high school and she had gotten all kinds of private high school offers 4 years earlier. Didn’t work that way for college. She did not apply to any state programs or schools that were not so elite in the performing arts and music, where she might have gotten close to a full ride. She could have gotten full tuition at the state U and commuted, but it was not what kids at her school and in her music programs did. She ran with the crowd but most of them could pay, and she could not when she got the offers. </p>

<p>My BIL was very disappointed that his son who had national times in a sport did not get the scholarship offeres he had expected except from schools that were not of any interest to the student or parent. We ran into that also with our athlete son as well. That “full ride” athletic scholarship is not that easy to come by if you have certain schools in mind. </p>

<p>A number of kids with great test scores and high class rank are disappointed each year when the top college in the area turns them down. Schools like CMU, Northwestern, WashUSL, often have a higher standard for locals as they can fill their classes with them, looking for some geographic diversity, which means a local kid can get WLed when he would have been a slam dunk had he applied from out of state and from a state that doesn’t send many kids to that school. I know at my son’s school, that the top 10% will all be applying to a certain core of the same schools and there will be disappointments as that is the type the school is going to get scads of apps from, and they want something different. </p>

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<p>Except for the unanticipated change in family finances that reduces the amount of money available for college without increasing financial aid, wouldn’t all of the other situations (bad counselor advice, being too picky about college characteristics, etc.) be causes of an overly optimistic application list that does not have a true safety in it? (I define an “overly optimistic” application list as one that does not have a safety that the student is assured of admission and affordability, and which the student likes.)</p>

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<p>What will he do if he gets shut out again?</p>

<p>Some students who get shut out of four year colleges have starting at the community college as their super-backup-safety. But what about those who are unwilling to consider that option?</p>

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<p>If the guidance counselor tells a kid that so and so college is a true safety, what happens when that kid gets rejected? To me, that’s not an overly optimistic list- that’s a terrible GC (but this is not uncommon.) A kid can get accepted to his or her state flagship- but not the engineering school- because the GC advised the student to take AP Stats and not BC Calc “because your GPA is very important”, and says it’s ok to take AP Bio senior year (after already having taken “regular” bio as a Freshman) and not AP Physics. And then the college sees an engineering applicant with no calc or physics coming from a HS which offers both.</p>

<p>There is tons of bad advice out there, and from the cases I’ve observed, kids who get shut out have usually taken that bad advice. Or have taken no advice- the kid who has been told since birth that since grand-daddy went to Dartmouth and several uncles went to Dartmouth and both parents went to Dartmouth, that he’ll get into Dartmouth. And he doesn’t. And the “safer” schools on the list are the kind of colleges which might have been matches a generation ago… but no longer are. </p>

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<p>Some people truly believe that their wonderchildren would get a wonderful scholarships. THey did not save for college or for much of anything, are living a life style that takes up every bit they make, and are in financial trouble, though all can look fine on the surface. When the acceptances come rolling in without enough merit money to make it happen at the private schools chosen, things can get tense. I’ve seen this happen with families who have had their kids in private k-12 schools. They just didn’t get it regarding financial aid If they are lucky, they understand they can’t afford the choices. SOmetimes, they find out when declined for PLUS. It can be a grim scene. </p>

<p>So there are students who get “shut out” due to money. Every year, there are kids who end up going elsewhere in the fall than where they were supposed to go in the spring. The money did not happen, and local, state choices had to be found instead. My sons know a number of such kids. </p>

<p>Because there are enough schools around with fairly open admissions, spots left after May, I don’t know anyone truly shut out in that they were not accepted to a single school to which they applied. Though some moms have bitterly told me this, that their kids got shut out, further conversation generally reveals they were not. They were just shut out from the choices they wanted.</p>

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<p>That is an overly optimistic list due to the counselor giving bad advice on what college can be a safety for the student. It may not strictly be mostly the student’s fault (because s/he may not know enough to be able to tell good advice from bad advice), but it does result in an overly optimistic list, and the student suffers the consequences of being shut out.</p>

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<p>There are years in which some colleges have huge increases in the # of applicants. Remember Doug Flutie? The year he threw the “Hail Flutie” pass, apps to BC went up 22%. Kids who applied to BC as a match suddenly found themselves shut out. That was one of the most dramatic examples of this, but things like this do happen. </p>

<p>I think the other problem is that a lot of kids don’t understand the impact of ED at colleges, especially LACs. You look at the #s and you’re up the 75th percentile for both gpa and SAT and you think you’re golden. What you don’t realize is that some of these colleges admit as much as 60% of the class in the early round. Looking at the admission data for the class as a whole is very misleading if you are applying RD. And it’s not just about stats–since the pool of early applicants is whiter and more suburban than the overall pool, white suburban kids who offer little diversity are facing much tougher odds RD.</p>

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<p>Ucb, you win. I was just trying to provide some nuanced context to your original question. Peace.</p>

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<p>Well, we’ve known many kids who’ve done the musical theatre circuit and been denied admission to all the BFA programs they auditioned to (like 10-20 programs in some cases.) They aren’t exactly “shut-out” in that they could still get a theatre BA to any schools that offered them an academic admission. However, we’ve only known one that managed to move into the BFA program and get the degree and particular training she wanted after starting college.</p>

<p>We knew one kid who had a “dream school or nothing” attitude. He was accepted into the program he wanted but offered only half the aid he needed. He took out large loans for the first year, was rejected additional loans the second year and had to defer. He has been trying to save up enough to go back which is extra hard as he had to start paying back those student loans he’d already taken out. If he isn’t able to afford this coming year, he will likely be dropped and would have to re-apply as a transfer. </p>

<p>Outside that, those particular and rather unusual cases, we don’t see it happen. Some kids will opt to do community college and transfer instead of going to their 4-year-safety but all the families we know “require” their kid to apply to a financial/academic safety. The public schools push it pretty hard too. Considering we have 3 public universities that most kids could commute to from home… one of which would be an absolute safety for a 3.5 with decent test scores, you just don’t see it.</p>

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<p>Sometimes the kid (and his parents) fail to take the GC’s excellent advice and get shut out or nearly shut out that way. In my D’s class, there was a kid who did very well on the SATs and had good grades. His parents were pushing the Ivies, but the GC said he should pick one as a reach and focus on matches and a safety. Her advice was based not only on his stats but on the knowledge that other kids in the class had higher stats and on the fact that at our tiny school, Ivies and other elite schools tend not to take more than one kid per class, if any. </p>

<p>The kid didn’t listen and was rejected from 10 schools. He is now attending his safety and is happy there, but the sting of 10 rejections must have hurt.</p>

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<p>I knew a kid who was shut out. He had challenged himself with honors and some APs, was a varsity athlete, great kid. I don’t know what his SATs were, but I assume they were probably in the 1800 range. He probably had a very solid B average overall. He applied to a number of schools that seemed very realistic. In fact, it seemed that he might get some merit. His family was stunned.</p>

<p>It turned out that the GC had written in her rec that “despite challenging himself, he remained in the top 50% of the class.” Our HS does not weight grades, so his class rank took a big hit because he was willing to get a lower grade in a more challenging class. Of course, our HS also does not officially rank! But the GC’s rec implied that he was barely into the top 50%. The schools that refused him are the sort that would prefer a higher-ranked kid with a weaker courseload.</p>

<p>He considered taking a gap year, but ended up going to one of the CTCL that perennially has spaces left after May 1st. He did very well. His father told me that his first year was a breeze because of the preparation he had in HS.</p>

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<p>“What will he do if he gets shut out again?”</p>

<p>This time around he’s applied to more reasonable schools - and a mix of schools as well. I’m pretty sure he learned the hard way. There was another young woman who didn’t get into any of the colleges she applied but was waitlisted at a couple. She called and stated her case and was admitted and is doing well three years later.</p>

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<p>My palms are sweating just reading this thread! </p>

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<p>I’d only be sweating if I had a kid who couldn’t discern the differences in the schools in the Ivy League and ONLY applied to schools in the Ivy League. If those admissions counselors (in the Ivy league) don’t cuddle up with the finaid officers to sneak a peak at the FAFSA for kids that need aid they aren’t as bright as I would have thought. Kids like that have a better shot if they applied to all the schools in the Big 10 or all the schools in the Pac 10 (or 11 or 12 or whatever they really are these days.) </p>

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<p>My fear is that the GC and everyone else agrees on 3 specific safety schools and something goes awry and child isn’t admitted to any.</p>

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<p>Do you mean scenarios where “the GC and everyone else” have a mistaken idea of what actually is a safety for the student (in either an admissions or financial aid sense)? I.e. bad advice from those around the student, as opposed to something that is the student’s fault (getting poor grades in senior year and it showing on the mid-year report or making it likely that admission offers will get rescinded).</p>