Although that does explicitly get mentioned by some posters along the lines of feeling like all of their hard work in high school did not matter if they go to the same college that their slacker 3.0 classmates go to.
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Those are also great insights. It seems clear that many of the kids or parents who are targeting certain âprestigiousâ colleges also talk about admissions to these colleges as if it was a simple judgment of merit.
Somewhat ironically, these colleges make it quite clear they donât think of their own admissions that way. Of course they want kids who are going to be well-prepared to thrive. But then they choose among the applicants who they think meet that basic preparation requirement largely by trying to put together an enrolled class that will best satisfy a long list of potentially conflicting institutional priorities. And they donât pretend that means the âbest kidsâ will be the ones admitted. Just some mix of kids that they thought represented a reasonable attempt to balance all that.
And again, I think some kids and parents actually find that way of thinking about admissions to these colleges to be quite a relief. But for kids or parents who really WANT admissions to these colleges to be a simple judgment of merit, they may resist that way of thinking, sometimes to the point they are essentially insisting that these colleges are lying to the public about how they REALLY do admissions.
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I would argue that it is â for those folks (not for me, not for several others I know, but Iâm not going to judge which criteria are âvalidâ fit factors and which are not).
We often see students in the âchance meâ threads who want to apply to Columbia, Brown, Yale, and Cornell. A common response is: âWhy are you applying to all these schools? Columbiaâs core curriculum is the opposite of Brownâs open curriculum, and Yale is nothing like Cornell.â
For the students I know who care most about prestige, that doesnât matter. The common factor is simply that these are all elite Ivy League schools, and attending one - any one of these - would make them feel good, regardless of the actual differences among them.
To be clear, I donât share that mindset. Iâm simply pointing out that itâs as real for some students as wanting a big sports experience is for others. And if itâs an important criteria in their college selection process then it is a fit factor (for them).
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It would not be surprising if chasing ranking or prestige were more common among the kids of immigrants who attended the âtopâ universities in their origin countries and came to the US as PhD students or skilled workers.
But first generation to college students appear less likely to chase college ranking or prestige than other students.
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I think this is basically a semantics issue.
If âfitâ is defined to include anything a kid or parent could conceivably want, then sure, the desire to be admitted to a college that was ranked as highly as possible on the US News National Universities list could be seen as a possible âfitâ factor, since it is apparent some kids or parents do in fact want that.
I think what some of us are suggesting, however, is that âfitâ, at least as we use the term, is not defined to include such goals. As I would put it, if you are letting a generic ranking that was formed with no specific consideration of your own individual interests, goals, abilities, preferences, financial circumstances, or so on dictate your college preferences, that is not what I would call looking for a good fit for you as an individual.
As usual, there is probably no single ârightâ definition. But I think we can at least be clear that if you are using something like generic rankings to dictate your college preferences, that is not âfitâ in the sense that some of us use that term.
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I agree that itâs semantics. And itâs a criteria, just like geography. But youâre right - fit is a murky concept.
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Fair point.
To help me better understand your definition of fit, do you consider any of the following to be fit factors in selecting colleges?
- Reputation for great parties
- Prominent Greek life
- Strong sports culture
- Location in cities like Boston, NYC, LA, or other desirable areas
- Being a target school for firms in the industry you plan to work in
To clarify: I didnât say name brand/prestige was merely just another item on a wish list - rather, I am asserting that itâs an important fit factor (for those who care about this)
I never mentioned rankings in any of my posts. Iâve consistently said âprestigeâ and âname brandâ.
Perhaps some of this is semantics, but I do think there is a difference between âfitâ and âpreferences.â âFitâ would be something along the lines of characteristics that would affect regular life at a school (whether academic or social), or related to nonnegotiables like oneâs health, budget, etc. âPreferencesâ would be nice-to-haves, but not something that necessarily has a regular impact on college life.
A student has Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). So Florida, Texas, and SoCal would all be options that could be a âfitâ for the student because they all get plenty of sunshine. The student might prefer to be on one coast or the other, but schools in any of those states could be contenders. In contrast, Loyola Marymount (L.A.) could be great for that kid but not Seattle U. or U. of Portland, even though there are definite parallels in terms of the schoolsâ experiences, but the Pacific Northwest would (and its overcast weather) would make them not a fit.
Seeking intellectually curious peers would be a fit factor, because it could affect every day life. That might be found at Yale but it could also be found at St. Johnâs or College of Wooster.
Wanting a big sporting experience can be had at U. of Michigan or U. of Southern California just as easily as at U. of Minnesota or U. of Oregon. But I think the desire to have the big sporting experience is a fit factor because that often impacts oneâs social life and weekends.
In contrast, prestige doesnât impact a studentâs life on the regular. Everyone at the college got in, so itâs not a differentiator at the campus. Thus, to me itâs a nice-to-have preference, but not a fit factor.
Could it affect the studentâs life on the regular because the prestige-focused student feels like a failure for attending a less prestigious college than was their goal, and that feeling of failure affects mental health and such?
(Or a related phenomenon is that prestige-focused parents keep reminding the student of how attending a less prestigious college is some sort of failure.)
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Or it could impact them in ways they donât expect: when most everyone there has spent their lives being at or near the top of their class, and now theyâre all thrown together where only a handful of them are going to continue with that while many will just be middle of the pack and some will find themselves at the bottom. That can be hard to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
Actually, I think itâs the opposite. The most prestige conscious families are apt to be full pay families who are priced out of the most expensive colleges and universities and by their behavior are conferring prestige upon an ever wider circle of âpublic iviesâ, honors colleges, and any private college offering a decent amount of merit aid. Thatâs been my observation since joining this forum.
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My D considers prestige to be an anti-fit factor. She spent her summer working alongside students who are hyperfocused on getting admitted to HYPSM-ish institutions, and she would prefer to avoid these students in the future. Does that count?
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Iâd call that a mental health issue and not a prestige issue. Because at some point, the kid is going to need to be able to deal with not getting the âprestigeâ option. Great, the kid gets into Prestigious U, but now theyâre no longer at the top of the class. Or they get into medical school, but itâs not a âtopâ medical school. Or they get into some Big $$$ profession, but theyâre not the top earner, or someone makes partner before they do, or someone has a bigger house, or a spouse that strangers envy more, or kids who are more âimpressiveâ or whatever. At a certain point, theyâre going to need to deal with not having prestige outcomes, as Iâve never heard of anybody, no matter how wealthy, famous, smart, good-looking, or whatever category is impressive to one, where everything always turns out with a prestigious outcome.
That is also a mental health issue that the parent needs to seek immediate assistance with as it is very damaging to their children and, frankly, a major parenting fail. If this was happening with a minor I would consider it emotional abuse that could be reported to the appropriate authorities (with intervention and resources provided for assistance, not as a threat of punishment).
Unlike the first example, I do think this can be a fit factor. If one knows that one tends to do best surrounded by a very strong set of peers and they find that motivating, then maybe acceptance to an honors college or similar could be a fit factor for those students. If a student tends to do better when theyâre among the top performers, then maybe they choose to attend a school where their profile would land them in the top quartile. Because although itâs not possible to always be in the âtopâ category for life, it is possible to lower the stress/achievement level. Maybe one prefers to work for a local accounting firm than a Big 4 one, or maybe oneâs happy to be in management but not at a Chief level of management, etc.
And although I think there can also be some counseling and such if a person never wants to be highlighted, or promoted, or at a âhigherâ level (whatever they consider higher to be), I think that quite frequently it tends to be based more on other values (as in, they donât want to sacrifice the effort/time/whatever for the higher level) rather than that they are opposed to being on a particular level due to insecurities.
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My answers are bolded below. I will italicize my edits, as @tamagotchi rightfully pointed out some inconsistencies in what I expressed!
I would say yes to all of those. The only caveat I would add is that I am assuming âBeing a target school for firms in the industry you plan to work inâ is based on actually investigating that specific question.
Like, I sometimes see people casually assert things like, âI am applying to T20s because they are targets in the X industry.â
That typically sounds to me more like a rationalization than an actual investigation. Including because there is actually no such information being used in the US News rankings methodology.
But if someone says, âI looked at a list of targets in the X industry that came from this [specific study, survey, informed insider, or so on] to help me find colleges for my list,â then that is definitely a fit thing to me. Obviously you can still have reasonable discussions about the quality of that information, but what such a kid is trying to do is find specific colleges that are good fits for them, as I would use those terms.
Sure, but again in my experience, there is no consistent definition or measure of what those terms mean, and then in practice, it is sometimes more or less just the US News National Universities rankings they have in mind. Like, there are these tell-tale posts sometimes at A2C where a kid does something like, âMy rankings by actual prestigeâ or whatever, and then you look and it is at most a minor reshuffling of the US News rankings.
Of course if they were referring to some actual survey or something, that could be interesting. I do think if they looked at such a survey, however, they could be surprised. Like frankly, the US News ranks highly a lot of colleges most people have little to no impression of, including because they are academically strong colleges, but not the sort that are often on ESPN or referenced in pop culture. I have zero problem with kids wanting to attend such schools to get an education, but I always find it amusing when kids assert these colleges are more âprestigiousâ than, say, well-known state flagships. It is hard to be more prestigious if the normal reaction among most people would be, âI donât know what that is.â
Actually, yes!
And in fact, if a kid said something like, âI really like hanging out with people who are obsessed with well-known status markers like the Ivy Leagueâas in Andy was easily my favorite person on The Office and I loved it every time he talked about Cornellâand I just want to be able to hang out with as many such people as possibleâ . . . OK, not my thing, but I would in fact see that as a fit argument too.
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Iâm sure this is a minority view but seeking prestige / brand name could very be a reasonable factor (as long as it has your intended major) if youâre the type of kid (or parent) who believes they could be happy at a wide variety of schools.
So, whether it has a Core Curriculum (Columbia) or an open curriculum (Brown) doesnât matter. And whether it has successful football (Michigan) or just plain D1 football (Harvard) doesnât matter. And whether youâre at a big school (UCLA) or a medium-sized school (Yale), size doesnât matter. And whether Iâm in a sunny climate (Duke) or a rainy one (Univ of Washington) doesnât matter. And so on.
My point is, when youâre 18 years old, your preferences are more fungible / flexible than you might remember from our distance of adult middle-age-hood, and I can see a kid saying âhonestly, I just want to get into the best brand-name I can, because it gives me the best âOPTION VALUEâ down the line, and my current preferences when Iâm a high school senior will likely change quickly anyway!â
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Hmm⊠Iâm really confused by your post! You said reputation for parties and sports culture both count as âfit,â while interest in theater, art museums, and other urban amenities is only a âpreferenceâ because âmost colleges will offer that no matter where theyâre located.â
I donât understand the distinction you are making.
All colleges will have some level of parties and sports on campus, but some colleges have more of a reputation for partying and sports culture.
All colleges will have some level of cultural activities available on campus, but some locations (typically urban ones) offer both higher quantity and quality for things like live music, theater, and art museums.
I donât see why one is âfitâ and the other is âpreferenceâ (presumably by âpreferenceâ you mean it is of lesser importance)?
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Iâm going to defend the âprestige equals fitâ crowd, mainly because they all seem too cowed to post on this thread.
In some instances- âprestigeâ is just a synonym for optionality. Yes, if a kid knows they want to study the history of the US and its relationship with Canada (until recently our biggest and most beloved trading partner- so this is not a trivial field of study), kid should head off to U Maine. But maybe the kid just loves history in general-- might or might not specialize as a graduate student. Or also loves bio and life sciences. And maybe will swap out history for poli sci or psych.
Do I criticize the kid for thinking that Yale is going to offer more âoptionalityâ down the road than U Maine? No I do not.
Or the kid who wants Folklore-- and yes, Indiana is the place to be. Museum Studies- Delaware. But what if the folklore kid just wants to start with a strong comparative lit program, and maybe a double major with Psych ? (very related fields now). Or the museum studies kid is thinking Art History or Asian Studies (the area of interest). Is focusing on Harvard as a way to cover off all the bases a dumb idea? No- if the kid has Harvard-like statistics.
And Art History itself- Williams may or may not have the strongest academic program in Art History. But it is unparalleled for its âArt Mafiaâ which includes current and former faculty, alumni, and just important people in the industry (auction houses, publishing companies, museums, the corporations which finance, insure, transport, restore valuable works of art). So sure- the Art History kid could find a perfectly fine program at their local regional public U. But one cannot insist that Local Regional U can launch a kid into an actual career in the way that a Dean at Williams can. Or rather- you can insist- but the reality says something different.
Is the kid a prestige hound for wanting Williams-- in a notoriously tough field to enter?
So Iâm giving prestige a pass today. In some fields, it definitely qualifies as âfitâ. And for those of you who constantly post about ROI-- there really are differences among universities besides the price tage.
Sure, kids are insane for wanting to attend Stanford just because itâs âprestigiousâ and the weather is better than in Ithaca, Hanover, and Philadelphia. But if the kid intends to study engineering and already has a gizmo close to the patent stage and wants solid entree into the world of the VCâs who spend 24/7 365 days a year looking for such gizmos to fundâŠ
it is delusional to tell that kid that wanting the prestige of Stanford is wrong wrong wrong. Yes, great startups come from everywhere. But the ease of introductions and entry coming out of Palo Alto vs. the very long road to climb coming out of U Buffalo or Bucknell (both fine engineering programs, but Buffalo and Lewisburg are not SV in the startup world)-- câmon.
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