<p>It’s difficult when something that should be irrelevant, like money, seems to get in the way of our dreams for our children. We truly want the best for them and it’s hard to feel like we’re “settling.”</p>
<p>I actually teach at one of those “not so good” schools that some people turn their noses up at. Two of my kids go to private colleges, one quite expensive (scholarship, phew!), so I guess I’m as academically snobby in my private life as the next person. Let me tell you a little bit about life here in what on CC is seen as the slums.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Reality: most kids who attend my college are from middle class and working class families. They are not the elite, wealthy kids. Many of them have part time jobs that they got because they need the money, not because it looks good on a college application.</p></li>
<li><p>This actually gives them some advantages. They know about hard work and deadlines and delaying gratification. If they choose to buy beer on the weekend (ok, Thursday night), they also know how much it costs and what they’re not able to buy because of that choice.</p></li>
<li><p>Having less money does not make these students less intelligent, less honest, less good looking or less anything else. Some of the best and brightest in my classes have transferred here from CCs because they couldn’t afford even our modest tuition for more than two years. One of our top students reluctantly enrolled here because she was given a full ride plus a research assistantship job; she has gotten grants, travelled abroad, worked closely with several profs, presented at professional conferences, taken leadership roles in student clubs.</p></li>
<li><p>Our students who choose to go to grad school - and many of them do not - have been accepted at some of the most prestigious schools in the field. Others choose to go to the state flagship because that’s more affordable. Many of our students have found work in their field, and they often keep in touch with the faculty members who mentored them along the way. </p></li>
<li><p>Of the 12 professors in my department, there are degrees from Cornell, Stanford, NYU, Penn, Purdue, various state flagship universities and a couple of international universities. (I honestly can’t remember them all.) Almost all of the fulltime professors have PhDs; of our parttimers, all have master’s degrees and professional experience in the field. All are committed to teaching as their primary mission. All have strong research backgrounds and ongoing programs of research. Since we have no teaching assistants or research assistants, we often invite promising undergrad students to work with us on projects.</p></li>
<li><p>Our offices are not aesthetically beautiful (with the exception of the ones in the new building that just went up last year). I sit in a linoleum floored office with battleship grey bookcases and a desk that may be older than I am. There are no beautiful ivy-covered buildings - we go in for functional brick on my campus - but there is a lovely new student center, a good library, adequate classroom space, a beautiful arboretum, really nice sports complex. We could use better parking, especially for students.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>If you go in with a positive attitude, your state school could be a wonderful experience.</p>
<p>stradmom, what are the expectations for students at your school?</p>
<p>Is it easy to slide by with little work? Or must the students do significant writing and reading outside class?</p>
<p>(I just heard of a report in USA Today that college students who drink spend more time drinking than studying, and I’d like to hear an insider’s perspective – )</p>
<p>Absolutely! And your D should get to know them from her classes. I also agree that she should use college as a time to expand her cultural horizons–music, art, philosophy.</p>
<p>fendrock - I think it depends on the prof. We do have smaller classes than the state flagship (we’re a T3 college), so it’s possible to assign lots of writing. But then we have no TAs, so we also have to grade everything we assign…</p>
<p>I do feel as though my D, the one at the overpriced LAC, does have more reading than our students, but she’s also taking lots of Lit classes, so that may account for it, too. Another possible difference here is that the profs are very cognizant of the cost of textbooks and try to select the less expensive option when there’s a choice.</p>
<p>D graduated #1 in her class and is having awesome academic and other experiences at in-state Honors program. Much more challenging classes than she ever expected. A lot of opportunities to the very top students in all aspects of college life, like jobs, academic scholarships, research,… etc., more than she could handle, turning down some awesome proposals. In general, D. is very happy with her choice. I do not see anything wrong with choosing public in-state. She was also accepted to very expensive private school whith about $28,000 / year academic scholarship, but choose her public school for greater opportunities.</p>
<p>Is the state college part of the National Student Exchange [National</a> Student Exchange - THE OFFICIAL SITES](<a href=“http://www.nse.org/]National”>http://www.nse.org/) ? I was talking to one student here who was interested in marine biology (kinda hard to do in a landlocked state ) but through the use of the NSE and study abroad options the university provided, she would only have to spend a few semesters actually on the local campus. All her financial aid would apply too.</p>
<p>First, we need to get rid of the Ritz/Holiday Inn analogy! Attitude is important! </p>
<p>Second, in this financial climate we are going to be seeing a really wide range of students at state schools. I know a number of kids (even before this recession) who got into Ivies and went to a state school because the money was better. What’s important is for her to know what is possible and how to achieve it.</p>
<p>Stradmom, how much do you think that field of study plays into the equation?</p>
<p>When my S was a sophomore, he job-shadowed a philosophy professor at a local U that is at the bottom of the Tier 1 Master’s Universities in our region. He said that it was clear to him that after a certain point the class wasn’t able to follow the prof. (S was a philosophy buff, and studied it at a summer program for several years.) Now, I have the impression that this class was mostly being taken by people who needed to fill a requirement, and that most of the students were enrolled in vocationally-oriented majors, many in health-related careers. (Training in those areas is what this U is reportedly best at.) So I wouldn’t discount the idea that there are other students at the school that would be more into the subject than these. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, in courses of study such as literature and philosophy, which are very discussion-oriented, isn’t it going to be more difficult for the highly-talented student to find a satisfactory classroom experience?</p>
<p>“Nevertheless, in courses of study such as literature and philosophy, which are very discussion-oriented, isn’t it going to be more difficult for the highly-talented student to find a satisfactory classroom experience?”</p>
<p>I think so. It won’t be impossible, but it might be harder.</p>
<p>Also consider which courses are likely to attract motivated students, rather than those getting a requirement out of the way. Two areas that come to mind are difficult foreign languages and music theory. If the CC offers introductory German, Russian, or Asian languages, those classes are tough for English speakers pretty much by definition.</p>
<p>Consolation - field may well influence the classroom discussion experience. I’ve had occasions where there are one or two students in the room who far outshine the others, especially in intro courses. The difference tends to even out in the upper level seminars, though.</p>
<p>Oh, that raises another point. Sometimes smart freshmen from top high schools are frustrated because their intro-level freshman college classes (not honors classes) at a state U are “too easy” - this problem will very very likely go away when the student is taking upper level classes in his or her major. If a student says “this college is too easy,” arrange for the student to sit in on an upper level class in his or her intended major. This should and is likely to excite him.</p>
<p>And I second the “be sure to study abroad” suggestion. (The student probably take study abroad classes that are sponsored by another institution - very unlikely limited to be limited to study abroad classes organized by the home institution.)</p>
<p>And I agree with the language idea! Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic classes will attract other top students and be challenging (and perhaps fun).</p>
<p>“Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic classes will attract other top students and be challenging (and perhaps fun).” </p>
<p>I agree. I’d add Latin, ancient Greek, and ancient Hebrew to the list as well.</p>
<p>A caveat, though. One’s GPA may take a hit as a result of taking challenging language courses.</p>
<p>I’d advise checking out the courses and the professors well in advance of signing up unless a) you don’t plan to go to professional or graduate school or b) your GPA is already bullet-proof.</p>
<p>I can’t help wonder, as I think about this tiering/ranking business and stradmom’s posts, How this plays out over time. While I can understand a young person determined to head into academia as a career would want to expose themselves to the most rigorous intellectual discussions I cannot understand what level of importance this plays for students who are headed into the workforce which is the great equalizer or even headed for grad school for professional enrichment where the grad school plays more importance perhaps than the undergrad. I’m not sure what the OPs daughter is thinking about career-wise, but in the long run it may not make much if any difference if there is x% of intellectual whiz-kids or xx% or 100% just as long as she finds challenging coursework and interesting kids and profs. That is what “enrichment” classes outside the major are for, too.</p>
<p>If you want it, you can get a stellar education anywhere. Get her into the Honors Program, where others just like her will be (and they will be - don’t think only your bright child can’t afford private schools) and see if there is an Honors Dorm. No guarantee, but a lot of those kids do study a lot. And make sure she takes lots of AP tests so she can place out of those boring, easy, lower level classes. Many state schools’ Honors Programs are the equivalent of prestigious programs.</p>
<p>While there are exceptions to every rule, here’s the standard advice I give to all kids going off to college (rule #2 is most relevant to this discussion):</p>
<p>1) Do all the homework (because if you do then you’ll also be fairly well prepared for the exams). Seems obvious, but there you go.</p>
<p>2) When it comes time to choosing electives, get in the long line. By get in the long line I mean sign up for the courses that are the most popular <strong>because they have outstanding professors</strong>. (Not because they’re required).</p>
<p>My degree is in engineering, but the three most memorable and life-altering courses I took were all hugely popular because of the professors who taught them. The courses were philosophy, Shakespeare, and a critical thinking course from the business school.</p>
<p>I am worried about my d avoiding those courses with the intellectually challenging discussions, but you are right is that the important thing is that they get the education they need to go where they want to go.</p>
<p>winchester, I feel cautious about your #2, as I would fear that the long lines are for the easy courses that do not meet in the morning or on Fridays.</p>
<p>If anybody worries about intellectual challenges at state colleges, relax. College classes are extremely challenging even for the very top with 4.0 and tons of AP’s with “5” in all of them. Nothing to worry about. In fact, a lot of very top students, including valedictorians are changing majors in State colleges because they found some programs are much more challenging then they ever expected.</p>
<p>Thanks all for your great ideas. It really helps to get advice from all you. D will be attending a tier 3 in-state or a CC. It seems that CC are the way to go if D would like to transfer to a top tier public college. D hasn’t decided if she’ll attend the tier 3 in-state or CC yet. We have an excellent public college; however, I doubt my D will get accepted in this top tier system. Because of the budget cuts, the acceptances rates are lower at the top tier public colleges. Another problem with public college is that for the most part they only consider gpa and sat/act scores. They don’t evaluate EC, leadership, volunteering, languages, etc. My D has a competitive gpa but her SAT scores are average.
MiamiDAP what type of state colleges are you talking about? top tier or the lowest tier?
I don’t have a problem with public colleges. My main concern is that D will be attending the worse, a low tier 3 in-state. Usually students get into this tier 3 with a 2.0 gpa. Of course, I’m sure many students with higher gpa attend, but they are not the norm. </p>
<p>Stradmom, thanks so much for your detail explanation about your experience with a tier 3 in-state. It really helps. May I ask you how do you think my D will be able to get a world class education? any advice ?</p>
<p>Don’t discount Tier 3 for the sake of being Tier 3. When it comes to quality of education and opportunity, you need to drill down to individual departments. Our experience…there are some truly hidded gems out there.</p>
<p>^^ it’s true. If we only new what major is going to be, we could have a better idea. So far we know that the in-state doesn’t offer the major my D wants. So D will have to decide what else to study.</p>
) but through the use of the NSE and study abroad options the university provided, she would only have to spend a few semesters actually on the local campus. All her financial aid would apply too.</p>