How Did I Get Waitlisted By My Safety School?

Archive Ask The Dean Archive
41

<p>

</p>

<p>They may say that, but how many of them actually are trying to “craft a community”, as opposed to other, more basic, institutional goals (e.g. filling the frosh class (sometimes by division or major, based on the capacity of such) with the “best” students they can get to attend without blowing out the scholarship budget). Probably only the super-selective colleges have the luxury of trying to “craft a community” by choosing from an overabundance of applicants with top end academic qualifications.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This statement may be anathema to many here, but many students will find an acceptable or better fit at many schools. I.e. they are not super picky to the point that only a small number of schools will be acceptable – they may find most schools that are affordable and offer the academic programs and majors that they are interested in to be acceptable or better. Indeed, the super picky students are the ones who are likely to end up being fixated on “dream schools” (a big let-down if they are unaffordable) or be unable to find safeties that they like (risking a shut-out). The students who are not super picky may not go through the motions of showing a high “level of applicant’s interest”, but if they end up at the given college, they may be perfectly satisfied students.</p>

42

<p>@TomSrOfBoston, The third of the three measures (shown below) used by US News for selectivity is acceptance rate, which is impacted by yield. If you have to let more people in because you let a whole bunch of students in who decided not to attend, your admission rate gets worse (a bigger number), and you are less selective. So you only let in people who you are pretty sure will enroll. That includes waitlisting too high of students.</p>

<p>====================================
this is straight out of the US News article for the 2014:
<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2013/09/09/how-us-news-calculated-the-2014-best-colleges-rankings?page=4”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2013/09/09/how-us-news-calculated-the-2014-best-colleges-rankings?page=4&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Student selectivity (12.5 percent): A school’s academic atmosphere is determined in part by the abilities and ambitions of the students. </p>

<p>We use three components: We factor in the admissions test scores for all enrollees who took the Critical Reading and Math portions of the SAT and the Composite ACT score (65 percent of the selectivity score); the proportion of enrolled freshmen at National Universities and National Liberal Arts Colleges who graduated in the top 10 percent of their high school classes or in the top quarter at Regional Universities and Regional Colleges (25 percent); and the acceptance rate, or the ratio of students admitted to applicants (10 percent). </p>

43

<p>

Must a student attend a school that considers “demonstrated interest” in admissions decisions in order to get a “good job”?
The methods that some of these schools are using to track such demonstrated interest are rather…invasive (from a privacy standpoint), if you ask me.

@Oregongirl14: You have clearly misinterpreted my last post. I’m not generalizing at all. I did not imply that “all” college coaches are sleazy. I agree that many college coaches are great, negotiate scholarship slots in a very straightforward manner, and avoid making promises they can’t/won’t keep. However, there are those who do the exact opposite.</p>

<p>Although I was not personally recruited as an athlete out of high school, I had several friends who were. A close friend has served as head coach and assistant coach at a major Div I basketball program. More recently, I’ve worked with a surprising number of students who were/are being recruited for Div I sports (basketball, swimming, golf, baseball, softball, tennis, water polo). The students and their parents have lots of interesting stories about how often certain coaches try to contact the kids (on a weekly basis), the things that are said, and the promises that are made. Surprising…and sad.</p>

44

<p>Sue, I do sort of agree with you. But even then, using a public computer is not necessarily going to give the colleges the information they need if a student is browsing anonymously rather than logging into an account or opening marketing email.</p>

<p>As for campus visits, I think using those to rank interest is patently unfair to kids who can’t afford to travel to all the schools on their lists before they have been admitted. All it does is further privilege those with the time and money to travel. (Of course, if a school is near a student and he/she chooses not to visit, that is a different story.)</p>

45

<p>Yes, level of interest can make a difference, even at schools that do not specifically use that as a factor. There is that human factor in there and if you have to pick from a bunch of names all on the “possible list” and you recognize some of them as very interested candidates, in a positive way, absolutely the admissions director will pick them out.</p>

<p>Another factor that can make a difference is the area of interest. Some schools, usually the bigger ones, are out and out compartmentalized and you actually apply to schools within a college or university. But sometimes, it’s more subtle than that, and it still can make an impact. A student showing a lot of interest in a language, for instance, and the college is trying to build that department will get accepted before the clearly premed applicant when that is the most common major at the school. There is only so much lab space, you know.</p>

46

<p>I totally understand that a school would be interested in which students really want to go there but I think their methods don’t really work.</p>

<p>@Sue22 you wrote “Admissions officers would like to know that an applicant has a concrete reason for being interested in a college, even if that reason is just that the school “felt right” when he walked around campus.”</p>

<p>Firstly, I can tell you my son never sent out an email asking when they are going to be in our area etc because the answer to that question can usually be found on the school’s website. He thought it was lazy of students not to search for that information themselves. He felt that it was “bothering” the admissions office unnecessarily and showed incompetence on his part.</p>

<p>Also for a college to get an idea if the student really likes them or not - well isn’t that what supplements on the Common App can be used for? Bothering to write an essay specific about the school takes a lot more work than throwing an email out there to the school.</p>

47

<p>I work for a small (5 people on staff) member-based nonprofit, and when we send out emails asking for membership renewal or just providing news or information, we want to see who has opened the email – somebody who never opens our emails is probably somebody who isn’t really interested in our organization and won’t be donating anytime soon. I think it’s not even a question of buying separate tracking software – I think the functionality is built into the bulk email system we use. It’s very standard and every organization that sends a lot of outreach emails is bound to have it. Whether they invest the staff time and resources into analyzing the data and looking at every kid’s file to see what emails they’ve opened is a different story, of course.</p>

48

<p>I think this “showing interest” thing is blown a bit out of proportion. The schools don’t want you to send flowers, or to pepper them with a hundred questions. They do want you to open their e-mails, to visit their online portal, and to take other steps that are reasonable for you–like meet with the college rep if he comes to your high school. I think visiting is a plus, but the college probably also has some idea of whether it is likely to be a hardship for you. If you live in the same city, or nearby, and don’t visit, that probably hurts you. If you live in Hawaii and don’t visit a school in the Northeast, I’m certain it won’t hurt you. Another example–if you’re offered an alumni interview, don’t decline.</p>

49

<p>I do think one area a student can show interest is by requesting an interview at the schools where they are optional. Interviews are typically done by alumni, or when an admissions officer is in the city for a few days. Sometimes it involves persistence on the part of the applicant–perhaps emailing or calling the admissions office to find out how to connect with the interview scheduler. Admissions officers also realize how booked kids’ schedules can be these days, and how much interviewing requires teenagers to step outside their comfort zones. </p>

50

<p>While it may be understandable, from the schools’ point of view, that high-stat students aren’t accepted because they probably won’t come, from the student’s point of view that really complicates the whole match-reach-safety concept. Your matches, in other words, aren’t really matches, since even demonstrated interest isn’t enough to mean you’d come, only that you’d come if you don’t get another offer. For the high-stat-but-basically-otherwise-not-outstanding student, for whom the reaches are really reaches because the student hasn’t Shown Leadership and Ranked Nationally, this is really a problem. And you can’t solve it by simply adding more matches to your list, especially if you’re expected to Demonstrate Real Interest in every one of them. All the matches may well feel the same way about him, unless he applies early decision–and most matchy LACs are early decision, not EA, which such a kid is not likely to do if he has a reasonable shot at a reach school. What should such a student’s strategy be? Apart from making sure he has a safety that guarantees admission, which is true for everyone.</p>

51

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>From what I’ve read and heard AO’s at schools that track interest are sympathetic to students who can’t travel long distances to visit their schools, particularly if the cost of travel would be a hardship. They do, however, expect students to display interest in other ways, for instance by attending a school fair, a high school information sessions, or a house party, or by requesting an off-campus interview. </p>

<p>I’m not recommending flooding admissions with emails, much less flowers and cookies. I was simply pointing out that students who cannot meet with an admissions officer can easily find other ways to make contact.</p>

<p>“Dear Admissions Rep,
Due to school commitments I was unable to attend either your recent visit to my school or the college fair in my area. Finances will make it impossible for me to visit campus. However, I am very interested in College X and would be interested in speaking with a representative of the school or a student if the opportunity should become available.
Thank you,
The Applicant”</p>

<p>There are questions that can’t be answered by most schools’ websites. For instance, it’s not hard to find out if a school has sororities and frats. How greek life affects social life on campus is a different question, and one not answered (or at least not well) on any school website I’ve seen. That’s the kind of question my kids have asked in interviews or school rep visits.</p>

52

<p>

</p>

<p>A student can do some preliminary research on fraternities and sororities by looking in the common data set or <a href=“http://www.collegedata.com”>http://www.collegedata.com</a> to see the percentage of students in the fraternities and sororities.</p>

<p>However, one can also realize that the fraternity and sorority dynamic varies between big and small schools. A big school may have a large fraternity and sorority system that is nevertheless only a small percentage of students, so students who like them and students who avoid them can both be satisfied with the situation.</p>

53

<p>FWIW, as a student who as just finished playing this game (for now), most interviewers and people affiliated with the admissions staff are very cagey about fraternities and that question usually leads nowhere.</p>

54

<p>Just finished a multi-state tour with DD, who asked this question of tour guides at schools with greek life. At one school we were told “The frats have the best parties and if you’re a guy you have to be a member or know someone to get in. I’m not a frat member but I’ve never had a problem 'cause my friends take me.” At another, “The frat houses are all owned by the school so they have the same rules for parties and functions as the dorms.” At the first school students rush as freshmen. At the second they are required to wait until sophomore year. Both schools have roughly the same percentages of kids in frats and sororities. I didn’t feel like one answer was right and the other wrong but I did find them revealing.</p>

55

<p>I am hoping this “Demonstrated Interest” tips the scale for my daughter. This college readily admits they track interest. So, we have physically been to the school 4 times (about an hour away) for various events, she participated in online chats, and we found an influential alum in our area that she met with and she volunteered to go to bat for her. Her grades are excellent, good variety of extracurricular activities and she said in the school-required essay that she loved the school and why. She elected not to go ED because she wanted to see where else she could get in. After 4 years of sweating, I think she just wanted to see if it paid off! Tick tick, waiting to hear in next 2 weeks. </p>

56

<p>Sally_R back to your original post, one more reason why its hard to visit a college campus besides, work, sports, etc, kids have at least 3 weekends dedicated to standardized tests (1 for SAT, 1 for ACT, 1 for a redo of the favorite, add another if taking the SATIIs). I really resent the SATs, (more so than ACTS) and both are expensive-- expensive to sit for the test , $50, and the opportunity cost of losing pay due to a Saturday test, that is essentially 5 hour exam w travel time, test prep, buying the book and the fact that they use the kids to complete an experimental section during the torture time. It is unconscionable. </p>

57

<p>@marysidney , who wrote:</p>

<p><<while it="" may="" be="" understandable,="" from="" the="" schools’="" point="" of="" view,="" that="" high-stat="" students="" aren’t="" accepted="" because="" they="" probably="" won’t="" come,="" student’s="" view="" really="" complicates="" whole="" match-reach-safety="" concept.="" your="" matches,="" in="" other="" words,="" since="" even="" demonstrated="" interest="" isn’t="" enough="" to="" mean="" you’d="" only="" come="" if="" you="" don’t="" get="" another="" offer.="">></while></p>

<p>The kid and I are awaiting decisions, like so many people. The kid is a very-high-stat (NMF, Presidential Scholar candidate) applicant. The kid conducted a very thoughtful and thorough college search and compiled a list of schools that met very specific requirements and expectations. Most applicants with the kid’s stats applied to the top 20 schools; the kid applied to two Ivies and no other top-20 schools.</p>

<p>The kid took “love your safety” to heart, has been admitted to both safeties with generous merit aid, and couldn’t be happier. On the other hand, the kid was waitlisted at a school that we thought was a match and an excellent fit and might not even be accepted at a school that we considered a low match (no, not a first-tier school). </p>

<p>The kid visited every school where applications were submitted, at least once. Some schools that track interest were visited four times. The kid interviewed everywhere and wrote fresh essays for each school, making the full effort, not just throwing applications out there to see what would happen. The kid genuinely likes and is interested in and serious about every school on the list and would be happy at any one of them. </p>

<p>I am not expecting the kid to receive any additional acceptances. Demographics are against us. </p>

<p>Admissions practices at LACs were a problem for us. The kid already had a generous offer of merit aid when it was time to decide whether or not to apply ED, and we agreed it would be madness to walk away from that scholarship. But I have been worried all along that schools will look at the kid’s application and think that they are on the list just in case Ivies don’t work out for the kid. I think we all wanted to add a postscript to the kid’s applications, i.e., “By the way, the kid absolutely loves your school and actually prefers it to HYP, so please take the kid as seriously as the kid is taking you!”</p>

58

<p>I happen to think that demonstrated interest in the form of mandatory visits of a college campus is way overrated. The schools that are very popular (30 to 80,000 applications) have no time to track the visits and the contacts, and are fully aware that not everyone registers for events. On the other hand, there are multiple ways to demonstrate interest without having to spend much money. Think about having to answer the essay "Why College XYZ) and start with an answer such as “I was impressed by the gothic architecture and the friendliness of the students.” Is that really the best one can do? Compare that to an answer that details having studies the research of Professor ABC and … corresponded with him about the direction of his future research. Guess who appears to have shown more demonstrated interest? Checking books out at the local library or reading abstracts of papers does not cost much at all. Matching a student’s interest with a particular subject of department is hardly difficult. It also does not have to be confined to one precise interest. One can express his interest in the Classics at Columbia, Business at Wharton, Biology at JHU, and atomic fusion at Harvey Mudd without hesitation. Or mixology at plenty of schools. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>In a perfect world, every student would have the opportunity to travel to the schools he plans to apply to. Getting the feel for the campus, the weather, the dorms, and the travel distances is (obviously) important and helpful. But those are personal in nature and do not necessarily fit the demonstrated interest shown to the … adcoms. </p>

<p>The bottom line? It is pretty easy to show a REALinterest in a school through a well-crafted application. Either through intelligent essays or through the use of additional information submitted. One can accomplish that easily without having ever visited a particular school. The key is to present a comprehensive application that says it all! </p>

59

<p>Sounds good, but – </p>

<p>The kid’s search included careful examination of course offerings in departments of interest and close reviews of faculty’s research interests, reading of journal articles, meetings with professors. The kid’s essays included very specific discussions of why school XYZ was a good fit, mention of those professors of interest by name, mention of meetings with them, how the research was compatible with the kid’s interests.</p>

<p>The kid has stats and qualifications that most CCers would amputate a limb to have. The kid has a coherent, cohesive application that points clearly to the kid’s pursuit of interests and conscious plan for the future. But demographics are against us. I am not holding my breath in anticipation of more good news pouring into the mailbox.</p>

60

<p>^^<br>
Well, the kid did ALL he could possibly do to boost his or her chances. The rest is in the hands of the adcoms who are tasked to build a comprehensive class of freshmen. The demographics and the not disappearing need to make sure that all minorities are finally represented in a way that matches the racial and economic distributions in our counrty do play a role. Albeit the reason why “thumbs” on the scale are still needed is that our most selective schools are still far behind in reaching reasonable equity. While most selective schools have done better in terms of racial distribution, they are hopelessly behind in terms of SES equity, as the rich still gets the lion share of admissions and this just as the over-represented minorities continue to gain more and more ground. </p>

<p>The (sad) reality is that in a world of single digit admissions, there are 18 or 19 disappointed applicants for every ONE that gets the elusive fat envelope. The good news --and there is some-- is that almost everyone gets accepted by a school that presents a great fit and great opportunities. In average, students get accepted at one of the top 3 choices. It might not appear that positive in April and May, but you will not find many students who end up regretting the decisions made by the adcoms five or six years after getting the results. </p>

<p>And, if one put his or her best foot forward and did not rush the process, there should be little regret! </p>