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<p>Cardinal Fang: DD’s college have shut down a fraternity for over drinking/cleanliness issue. So the colleges do take serious action against violators. Also DD’s college actually have many frat houses on the campus, so those are not different from theme based dorms in my view.</p>
<p>"Really? What does the area around their frats look like on Sunday morning? "</p>
<p>Probably no different than the area around some residence halls on a Sunday morning, or the inside of the halls themselves…</p>
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<p>True.</p>
<p>But one thing that they pretty much all have in common is that they exclude students based on arbitrary social criteria. </p>
<p>You’ve all talked about how great your kid’s frat is. I’m sure it is, but tell me about the rejected
Kids. How do they feel? What was so terrible about them that they should not get to participate?</p>
<p>So you’ve moved from saying the same things over and over again in slightly different ways to saying the same things over and over again in the same ways.</p>
<p>I’m going to go back to the original question. </p>
<p>My son graduated last year from a private, competitive school as a math major. </p>
<p>When we were deciding which schools to visit he took several schools off of his list because they were “too Greek.” He was even turned off by one school’s eating clubs. My husband and I were never involved in Greek life at our state school and were happy he wasn’t interested in them</p>
<p>He had absolutely no interest in joining a fraternity. But you guessed it. He came home at Christmas sophomore year and decided to buy 2 suits. Not until after he went back did we find out they were for rush. What happened? He made friends and rushed with them. I guess he kept an open mind even if we didn’t. We got to visit the next summer and were very impressed by the guys in the house. They were a diverse group of people. </p>
<p>We talked to him about our expectations of keeping up his grades and paying for his own beer. One brother described him as one of the most studious guys in the house. </p>
<p>Our son is now a PhD student in a top notch program. </p>
<p>So it came down to trust and communication. And reading the student newspaper!</p>
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<p>DD’s went to prep HS and all the kids there were extremely capable academically but not everyone was able to get in to the top notch colleges. But there were kids who belong to extremely rich families (parent capable of donating million $$) as donation to the top schools. Those kids made it to the top schools on top of many other children. Did that disappoint many rejected children? must have. Did it stop other academically capable kids to think twice joining the same colleges. No, because even if those colleges accepted kids with donation the colleges are still top colleges.</p>
<p>So even though there might be cases of kids getting rejected from Frat/Sorority but that doesn’t devalue all the good qualities of these groups.</p>
<p>I went to a top engineering school. If one didn’t keep one’s grades up, you were out. So, in order for our fraternity to keep the costs of living there reasonable, we had to have our members do well in school. That concept was stressed to us as incoming freshmen. If any brother was doing poorly in school, he got lots of help from his brothers both from the money point of view and because we were there for each other as brothers. </p>
<p>Also, everyone grows up into adulthood in college (some more than others). I believe that my being in a fraternity certainly helped me transition from a nerdly introvert to a more outgoing personality, although still somewhat nerdly (or so my wife says).</p>
<p>Not all fraternities at all schools are going to be the same. Why limit yourself by rejecting the Greek organizations out of hand? Look into them and make a decision based on information not ignorance.</p>
<p>Do you notice how there are no parents coming on confessing how horrible it was to be rejected from sorority/fraternity? Is it just possible that, in the long run, it didn’t ruin someone’s college experience, or life? I see Greek parents and Greek members defending the institution, and I have read numerous diatribes from independents about this elitist system.
I have frankly covered the issues of drinking (though Cardinal Fang chooses to ignore that post), and have chuckled over the fact that no Greek-hating parents touched the class issue with a ten-foot pole (since Denise was probably too busy with her high class friends). Why are some so quick to discount the opinions of numerous people that have shared their stories of their own experiences, or those of their children? I find it odd that those ACTUALLY connected to fraternities and sororities can see the both sides, but those with no affiliation are trying to say that all of our experiences must be the exception rather than the rule. </p>
<p>I hate to get sucked back into this, but I find it galling that these same parents think nothing of sending their children to elite private high schools, hiring tutors, living in high income districts (all forms of segregation) while decrying the sororities as elitist. Why are these middle/lower middle-class kids being called elitist? </p>
<p>If you have a personal story of rejection, and truly have something to add, now is the time. We seemed to have covered this ad nauseum. I have had frank discussions with my friends who did not get into a house in college and it doesn’t bother them now. I would be truly interested in hearing from someone who didn’t make it (though I read many sad stories on greekchat of failed recruitment) from a parent perspective.</p>
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<p>It’s really no more or less arbitrary than the criteria we all use for evaluating the people around us and deciding whom we wish to pursue friendships with. If I meet 10 other mothers of hs seniors at a school event, and I decide that this 3 women seem interesting and I’d like to get to know them better, and these 7 just don’t do anything for me and I wish them well but we’re not going to pal around, how is that not equally as arbitrary? </p>
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<p>You keep claiming that “not invited to join” = “we think you’re horrible.” In my example above, I don’t think the other 7 women are horrible people – I’m just not interested in hanging around them or getting to know them better. Luckily, they’re probably not interested in hanging around me either so it all works out for the best.</p>
<p>High class friends. LOLOL. I almost spewed coffee from my nose. Thanks for that laugh. We live in one of the wealthiest areas in the nation because the schools are good but we don’t live like them and are not one of them…as our bank account would attest. We live a downsized life in order to afford living here.</p>
<p>I love the assumption though. Can’t stop laughing.</p>
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<p>Did we misread this?</p>
<p>Both my kids are home, so I’m going to bow out of this circular discussion that continues to rehash the same ground. </p>
<p>Instead I’m going to spend time with my frat-boy son and my wanna-be-sorority daughter.</p>
<p>That would be the son with the 3.8 GPA, who was disappointed that his frat came in 2nd to another frat on campus for highest GPA last semester, probably because they have so many engineers in his house - and yes, the frats at his school DO watch the GPAs and DO compete to see whose GPS is be the highest… the son who has been rejected from several teams he’s tried out for but welcomed by his fraternity brothers… the one who learned how to fix a vacuum cleaner because he lives in the frat house and they don’t have Res Life to solve their problems or clean their house for them - I wonder what the dorms would look like if the students in the dorms were responsible for cleaning them themselves?</p>
<p>And that would be the daughter who already knows what she wants for Christmas: money for an alternative spring break service trip with Campus Ministries. </p>
<p>Since they’re Greeks, should I adopt Denise & Soze & Cardinal Fang’s view that they are exclusionary, elitist, binge-drinking vandals? No, I think I know my kids a little better than that. ;)</p>
<p>What some of you are not getting is that recruitment is a “mutual selection” process. The rushee’s are also eliminating the houses that they do not feel comfortable in or “like”. Sometimes the reason that someone is completely eliminated from the process is simply because they “cut” the houses that they thought were beneath them or didnt like and then there was nothing left for them. You can ask almost any panhellenic leader at most schools and they will tell you that if you keep an open mind, you will find a home. Sometimes the rushee just doesn’t want to keep an open mind and they go in thinking there is only one or two options for them. </p>
<p>This is the thing that I stressed the most with my D when she went thorugh recruitment…that she must keep an open mind if she wanted to be in a sorority. The sorority that she ended up pledging was not her her first choice going in, but just last night she told her father and I how much she loved it…eventhough it wasn’t where she pictured herself at all. The goal of most greek organizations at most schools is for every student to find thier home…not to exclude…</p>
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<p>This is a HUGE point, and if you scratch the surface of girls disappointed in rush, you’ll invariably hear "well, I wanted to be an A because they were the cool house, and I didn’t bother going back to parties at B, C, D and E. " While I don’t have a strong point of view either way, the benefit of an early fall rush is that the girls just get to know the girls in the houses at face value, without a semester’s worth of hearing that A is the cool house and B is the jock house and C is the Jappy house and D is the WASP house and E are the party girls. The selection works both ways, which is something that soze repeatedly refuses to hear. It is not just one-way.</p>
<p>I just want to make the comment that as it turns out, oldfort’s D and POIH’s D both wound up in the same sorority that I was a member of (though at different schools). I somehow don’t think either oldfort’s D or POIH’s D are drunken vandals, or “hooligans” as we used to say, but hey, who knows, LOL.</p>
<p>I will ask D1 as she is with us this week - if she is a drunken vandal.</p>
<p>^^that’s hilarious! :)</p>
<p>I’ll ask DD too as she will also be home for thanksgiving if she is a drunken vandal. DD’s sorority house is in city’s prime residential area, any vandalism will not go unpunished.</p>
<p>D1 is home, because of this thread I asked her about her view about Greek life, now 3 years later. This is what she said…</p>
<p>She said if she had gone to school without Greek life, she would have been just as happy, but she would have found similar type of girls to be friends with. At her school, where there is Greek life, she is glad she joined a sorority. The expereince she’s had at her school is very different from her 3 best high school friends at a school like Georgetown. Her friends at Georgetown usually socialized at people’s apartments - and that’s invitation only, with alcoholic drinks just like any Greek sponsored parties, but they rarely have to get dressed or plan a get together. My daughter said, as a social chair she’s had to plan quite a few events, and it involved in managing a budget, and dealing with caterer, dj, bus company, and attendee’s safety. She feels the expereince she’s gain is going to be invaluable when she is working. She recognizes there is some negative aspect of Greek life, but over all there has been more positive than negative.</p>
<p>Greek members do gain a lot of “work” experience, especially if they are officers of a house:</p>
<p>President of a house runs it like a corporation (having to make many executive decisions), finance person needs to make sure budget balance at end of year…Those officers deal with contracts, employees at the house, insurance, liase with school adminstration and national chapter officers. I think a lot of hiring managers view those as very good expereince for young people. I met someone who was responsible for food at his frat when he was at MIT. He said it was a very stressful job in making sure there was enough food, within budget, and brothers were happy with the food (with various dietary restrictions).</p>
<p>I admit to finding this conversation a little disorienting, after reading all these stories of students who benefitted so much from Greek life, where the selection system was “mutual,” where they didn’t drink that much, where they were all studious, etc. Are the stories I read in the papers of frats closed down for hazing, of alcohol poisoning, destruction, etc., just made up? Or maybe the kids (and parents) involved in those “bad” frats and sororities just don’t post on CC?</p>
<p>To me, the question for a prospective student is this: what effect does Greek life at the particular school have on the overall social life of the school? Does it promote social hierarchy and exclusion and a party scene that concentrates on binge drinking and random hook-ups? Or is it more like the benign version I keep reading about here? Obviously, you have to look at the specific colleges that interest you. But you’re going to have to probe a bit deeper than just asking people who are in or out of Greek life.</p>
<p>Let me just say, finally, that while there have been plenty of generalizations in this thread, on both sides, it seems particularly wacky to generalize based on what goes on at MIT, of all places.</p>