How do top scorers on tests fail to gain admission to top schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>Sounds good in theory, kluge, but the stereotype just doesn’t hold in some of the cases with which I am familiar. At my son’s high school, there simply were not any math, science, history or lit courses worth taking that weren’t AP. The school is one-third free lunch kids, four generations in the same public housing apartment. Nothing in between AP and very basic, in the core courses. So it really isn’t fair to assume that a kid with a lot of APs is just some drudge who wants to get in to tippy top school. (The one and only super elite my kid applied to was MIT. He didn’t care about Ivy, and he didn’t think any of the other elites were worth full pay.)</p>

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<p>That is a bothersome approach. Those kids who do their applications on their own–and my kid was one–are not aware that adcoms actually want to know about their LAN parties, the fact that they teach orienteering, that they take dance lessons, go on two week treks to the wilderness, or that they are voted prom king. It just doesn’t seem relevant to them, and you know, it doesn’t seem relevant to me.</p>

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<p>Midmo:</p>

<p>I agree that at many schools, APs are the only courses studious students feel are challenging enough. Taking lots of APs is not a sign of drudgery.</p>

<p>However, I disagree with the second part of your post. Given the large number of students with stellar academic profiles, colleges will look for applicants who can add something extra to the life of the community, be it athletics, music, dance, journalism, etc… It may not seem relevant to you, but it’s what makes a college community seem vibrant. And not just the college but the surrounding community as well. This afternoon, I had the occasion to walk through Harvard Yard. There were masses of posters inviting freshmen to audition for a variety of choirs. I do look forward to concerts given at Harvard, some of which are even free. I like to read the Harvard Crimson, and I enjoy the Head of the Charles regatta. One of these days, I may attend the ice-skating show, Evening with Champions, started by a Harvard student who became an Olympic ice-skater. Or I may look into a ballroom dancing competition; several of my S’s friends, both male and female, enjoy these sessions.</p>

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<p>Well, it seems very relevant to me. I completely agree with kluge’s statement. The elite-college-trophy-seekers are predictable and common. (Maybe not in your area, but FYI they are extremely common in many communities, including mine.) Its what your kid does in his “other” time that paints the picture of who s/he is and why s/he stands out, imo.</p>

<p>(Agree w/marite; cross-posted)</p>

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<p>As Marite said above, the most selective schools seem to be looking for more than SATs/GPA. And why shouldn’t they? There are more high scoring kids than there are spots – even if there was a sure fire way to sort those kids into a ladder of some kind, and the schools took only those on the very top rungs, it wouldn’t necessarily make for a better class.</p>

<p>The other aspect of the EC side of this is that it takes a lot of time for some ECs. If a student can achieve high scores and grades in a challenging curriculum, while pursuing outside interests with some intensity, then they have spare capacity. That capacity can be used in college to pursue some very tough majors or add to the life of the college. If a student only achieves the scores and grades by focusing all of his/her energies on that task, even they might find it difficult to succeed at a selective college or in a difficult major.</p>

<p>I just wanted to add that I would find it excruciating to attend a school populated by all of one kind of student. My husband and both sons are math/science types. Fortunately, they each have a variety of outside interests that I share. But if they didn’t, it would drive me crazy!</p>

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<p>My response to kluge (not tokenadult) was written in a moment of extreme annoyance that had nothing to do with college confidential or the subject matter at hand. Sorry.</p>

<p>I agree that the overall picture of a student is important, and I don’t disagree with anything in marite’s last post. I am bothered, though, that the adcoms of elite schools do not seem to realize that here in podunk land, many students take full responsibility for their own applications. School counselors are worse than useless. Few of the applicants read college confidential, and many (not defending this) don’t even read the admissions blogs of target schools because they think it is just a bunch of nervous nellie types wasting time worrying about how to get into MIT or wherever. Hence, they are naive about what the game entails. Their self-portraits may well seem flat and one-dimensional, but often that is a function of not being part of the hyper-competitive culture common in other places.</p>

<p>Because this is a small world, I cannot detail why I know there are flaws in the current system, and that the adcoms of some of our most prestige schools are not the eagle-eyed pros they think they are. I realize one big error does not condemn a system, but I think, really think, that the subjective nature of the review and the fact that expectations are not universally well known leads to far more “mistaken” decisions than many on cc are willing to admit.</p>

<p>Let me be clear, though, that I am very happy with my son’s fate and I did not jump into this thread because of any bitterness, anger, need for vengeance, etc. Tokenadult wanted to investigate whether National AP status correlated with top acceptances, and I had a couple of examples to offer.</p>

<p>kluge, I have sent you a pm that may explain why I think your theory does not explain reality very well.</p>

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There are two possible errors on admission decisions and I would guess parents and schools are worried about different possible errors.</p>

<p>As parents we often look at the outcome for a particualr student and judge that it was a mistake they were not accepted to terrific school X. And this student may well have made a great student at the school. I certainly know lots of qualified applicants who have not been accepted at schools for which they were qualified.</p>

<p>I would guess the school is more concerned if they accept any unworthy students. This is a different concern … and my experience at three “elite” schools has been that these schools very rarely accept unqualified students … they make very few mistakes of accepting someone who should not have been accepted.</p>

<p>YMMV.</p>

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<p>Midmo:</p>

<p>Your points are well taken. It is indeed sad that students and GCs are not as savvy as they need to be for the hyper-competitive schools. Reading the results of applications on CC, I am often astonished that some stellar students were not admitted into their first choice schools; and sometimes, I do wonder at some who were admitted and turn out not to be that strong in college. Be it as it may, the dud admission decisions are probably not that many (I’m not talking here about the donors’ children, or arts or sports stars but real mistakes); and the number of highly qualified students continues to outstrip the number of available slots at the top universities. The good news is that the spillover effect can be felt at many other colleges.</p>

<p>EDIT: crossposted with 3togo.</p>

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<p>I’m guessing from this^, that your real beef is that someone from your kid’s school, whom you do not believe is qualified/deserving, was admitted to a top college(?) If that is the case, I can empathize with your feelings. There have been several admits to HYP from my kids’ hs that shocked me, AT FIRST. Then, when I really thought about them, I realized that the special qualities about these kids were not the kind that is necessarily recognized in h.s., and that, upon closer inspection, they really were stellar students and exceptional people.</p>

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<p>I’ve heard more parents worrying that their kids may be stressed out by the workload where they’re admitted. I tend to think the colleges have this mostly figured out.</p>

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<p>I agree that the spillover effect can be quite beneficial to the many other worthy schools.</p>

<p>3togo, mistakes in either direction are inevitable; it would be a strange world in which mistakes were impossible. I have a few concerns that some of the admissions practices currently in use actually are biased against the type of student that is supposedly in demand: the independent, too busy with important things to worry endlessly about perfecting my college application type kid. </p>

<p>I don’t have any suggestions about how to remedy that.</p>

<p>As the parent of one, and friend to many other, students who handle a ton of AP and university courses and still have many friends, dates, activities, clubs, music, boy scouts, jobs, and leadership positions, I plead with all of you who assume that all academically talented kids are drudges to stop making unwarranted assumptions. Some kids really can do it all. Even if they are too busy to blather about it on their college applications.</p>

<p>I hope that is the end of my crabby mood today. Sorry to subject all of the internet to it.</p>

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<p>Bay, I have in mind a situation that does not involve my kid at all, but does involve students I know well. One admitted, one rejected to the same super elite. I have known both students for many years, I know all of the parents very well, and I know their strengths and weaknesses. I have no doubt the wrong kid was accepted, but it really isn’t a big deal. The rejected student is at an excellent school and seems happy. The other kid–well, I hope that one is happy with mom and dad’s choice!</p>

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<p>Bay: I had a similar experience with one girl who is a legacy accepted to HYP. It was silly of me because DS did not even want to go to HYP (nor do I think he would have been admitted) and did not apply. Her stats, however, were probably not as strong as DS, nor did she do the sheer volume and variety of extracurriculars that DS did.</p>

<p>I had the opportunity of spending an hour or so with her just before she went off to HYP and was able to observe poise, adventurousness, generosity and self-confidence far beyond the other kids in their class. In my mind I congratulated her and HYP for finding each other; in person I just warmly and sincerely congratulated her.</p>

<p>Now I know these petty, competitive thoughts are not attractive in me, but I wanted to corroborate Bay’s observation.</p>

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<p>Mistakes are going to be inevitable, and not just because human beings are in charge of making admission decisions (should we trust computers instead?) The question is not whether mistakes can be reduced to zero but whether the admission criteria. policies and processes in place yield, on the whole, the best possible cohort of students given the colleges’ desire to have both an academically strong student body and a vibrant community. And if not, how can these be altered or improved.</p>

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<p>Prof Cech wrote an article in “Daedalus” 1999 about sciences being better filled by LAC’s than well known – HYSP – high-SAT schools.</p>

<p>Can be found at <a href=“http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf[/url]”>http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>He states:</p>

<p>“. . . the most selective private research universities (Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and Yale) are more selective than any of the liberal arts colleges, and their students taken as a group have a higher SAT scores than the entering classes of any of the liberal arts colleges. Yet, their proficiency of production of Ph.D.'s, while excellent, lags behind that of the top liberal arts colleges (table 3).”</p>

<p>In short, SAT scores are not the absolute barometer. Cech concludes that LAC’s are more proficent in educating the “lesser” SAT student. And, he further concludes that the SAT has little impact in determining the ability of a student to obtain the highest degree in sciences. </p>

<p>In all fairness, the schools with the top percentages in his table 3 have grown greatly in prestige since his publication. Many of those schools, by the rampart advances of admissions via “parent mania” and the internet’s Common Application, have seen dramatic increases in SAT scores for admitted students in the past 8 years.</p>

<p>The more-relaxed atmosphere in admissions at these schools has become beholden to either USNWR-type statistical baravado, or become (much) better recognized from Loren’s CTCL and Cech’s article espousing LAC’s strength in education – or both. In any event, the admissions counselors of these schools now review students with SAT numbers comparable to Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and Yale. Look at Pomona and WIlliams and Amherst numbers – then look to Cornell, Brown and U Penn numbers. Surpringly, the little guys have higher or equal SAT numbers – of coure this is no surprise to those who are acquainted with or part of those respected LAC’s entourage.</p>

<p>But, the majority of the LAC’s will always lag behind Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and Yale. But, that difference seems to be lessening. In fact, today’s SAT of many of the LAC’s is what Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and Yale saw in 1999 when Cech wrote his article. Some schools which had lesser scores at time of his article’s publication (but which now have tremendously competitive scores) include: Grinnell, Rensselaer, Case Western, Oberlin, and Kalamazoo.</p>

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<p>But how can you tell if it’s “just plain really smart” or “I’m in so far over my head that all I can do to keep my head above water is to study all the time – so i don’t have time for EC’s.” There’s a boy in my son’s honors classes this year who does NO extracurriculars. His grades are perhaps two or three points higher than other kid’s grades, but honestly he’s a drudge. Wouldn’t a school notice that?</p>

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<p>Is he a drudge or is he passionate about his studies?</p>

<p>Lack of ECs in and of itself should not be a strike against an applicant–and it was not for my S. It was clear from his record that he had always been passionate about math and science. While colleges want to build a class and a vibrant community, they also want academic achievers (stars, if they can get them). </p>

<p>If the student in question is truly a drudge, I suspect the colleges will notice it.</p>

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<p>Cech’s paper equates percentage of students who gets PhD’s with the success the school’s science program, which fails to correct for the differing interests of the entering student bodies and treats all MD’s and JD’s as failures. The paper also treats all PhD’s the same, as opposed to looking at citations, job placement, etc. One possible explanation of the data is that the kid who is 10th best in his class at physics at a top university realizes he’s unlikely to get tenure at a good school and decides to do something else; the same kid could easily be the 1st or 2nd best student in a LAC and feel encouraged to get a PhD. And w/o more data it’s not obvious who made the right choice.</p>

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<p>“But how can you tell if it’s “just plain really smart” or “I’m in so far over my head that all I can do to keep my head above water is to study all the time – so i don’t have time for EC’s.” There’s a boy in my son’s honors classes this year who does NO extracurriculars. His grades are perhaps two or three points higher than other kid’s grades, but honestly he’s a drudge. Wouldn’t a school notice that?”</p>

<p>Why would a school like HPYS bothered to accept such a student when they have plenty of applicants with very strong grades and strong ECs? They also have applicants with very strong grades and academic interests whose academic interests have led to state and national science or history fair wins or being published in professional journals. There’s no reason to accept a kid who has only grades/scores to offer when the competition has more. That doesn’t mean however that the other kids from your kid’s school will get in because all of the applicants are competing with an international group of applicants, not just with the students at their school.</p>

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<p>Neither of my kids is the “drudge” type at all (I wish they were more like this Haha), but I want to say a word for the “drudges”. Maybe professions benefit from the dogged approach of nose-to-the-grindstone, work as hard as you can. Perhaps these individuals don’t make the most scintillating companions (hence their lack of success in admissions at HYPS), but they do make their contributions to the world in many real ways, even if it is not at the highest levels of creativity. </p>

<p>Many “drudges” have gone farther in my discipline than I have by virtue of their focused approach. I may have the more interesting paper to present at a conference, but they may have attended more conferences and written more papers.</p>

<p>I respect a student whose focus is academics; if s/he has a passion for thei discipline s/he is certainly not a drudge; if not, at least the person his applying her/his personal resources to accomplishing something.</p>

<p>That this kind of person is not a candidate for HYPS is fine by me, but I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with this approach for some people.</p>

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<p>The definition of drudgery includes tediousness, boredom and lack of intrinsic interest; that is, doing a chore only because one has to for some reason or other. I’ve known students who fit that profile, as far as I can tell. But, I’m thinking my husband probably looks like a drudge to people who don’t know him well, yet he finds his work fascinating, useful, challenging, fun and lucrative. A lot of people pay him a good deal of money for his research and his advice, and seem to think he has interesting things to say.</p>

<p>Those who appear to be drudges (but aren’t) can make very fine spouses and parents, even if they aren’t shiny enough for certain types of universities.</p>