<p>Welcome back Hawkette! :)</p>
<p>How about outside the top 5 hawkette?</p>
<p>Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzagirl
Among the top 20 schools, no other school boosters feel so compelled to point it out and make distinctions between all these great, but different, schools. </p>
<p>You obviously haven’t run into many Wash U, Berkeley, or (sadly enough) Chicago posters. In their defense, these universities are frequently bashed for being “overrated” (an ambiguous term at best), so it comes as no surprise their students are a trifle defensive. The fierce Northwestern vs. Chicago thread a while back comes to mind.</p>
<p>Quote:
Originally Posted by rjkofnovi
Pizzagirl. They have to point it out because if any of these Duke posters got accepted at HYPSM, they wouldn’t have an inferiority complex that needed to be stroked. </p>
<p>Quote: IBclass06
I don’t really see how that adds to the debate, since it is clear that the OP was asking about Columbia and its peers. Are you implying that more HYPSM rejects choose Duke than Chicago, Columbia, or Brown? I find that difficult to believe. </p>
<p>Not at all IB. I would contend though that the Duke supporters here would like you and everyone else on these boards to believe that. Also I would mention that nobody is saying here that Duke is overrated. It is the Duke supporters who feel they are the next best thing to HYPSM and virtually every other school is beneath them. By diminishing schools that are their PEERS, according to definition, they tend to alienate and insult other members on CC. Hence my opinion that they are for the most part bitter rejects from the top 5. That’s my view. I’m sure that i’m in the minority here. Sorry.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We addressed this, you are boosting Michigan to a place it doesn’t deserve. We are simply justifying Duke at a place it does deserve. One is boosting, one is a realistic evaluation.</p>
<p>Thank you for that post Hawkette, I do think its unfair how much certain schools get abused.</p>
<p>Finally Pizzagirl, here is my question to you. If Michigan is as good as Duke/Penn/Columbia… why isn’t NYU as good as Michigan. IN USNWR (not perfect just an example) rankings Penn is ranked 5, Michigan is ranked 25 and NYU is ranked 34. So if a a school (Michigan) is equal to a school ranked 20 places higher, why wouldn’t a school (NYU) be equal to a school ranked only 11 places higher than it? Is your logic of equality fair, or is it simply applied where and when you choose—the very same thing you accuse us of.</p>
<p>Because NYU isn’t? </p>
<p>You’re falling off the beaten path Bescraze. </p>
<p>Publics + USNWR = Shaft.</p>
<p>UMich’s Grad programs are that good. Seriously. </p>
<p>NYU doesn’t even compare to anything 11 spots above it.</p>
<p>Oh and btw, I’d run if I were you. Alexandre’s lurking around here somewhere prob.</p>
<p>I know, my only point is that Pizzagirls rankings that all the top 25 schools are equal is making an arbitrary cut off point. I completely agree that Michigan is far far superior to NYU. It was just to assert a point. I just met a really cool kid who goes to U Mich (in-state) and will now go to Ross next year and he is very intelligent, and I bet will be very successful. People are successful from anywhere, but saying that Michigan is as a whole on par with Penn/Duke is just not right</p>
<p>Michigan’s grad programs aren’t in question here. At the undergraduate level, NYU and UMich are peers.</p>
<p>bourne,
We had a thread last year that discussed the USNWR rankings methodology and whether it favors publics or privates. Here is the thread and one of my comments therein:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/337654-public-universities-hurt-helped-usnwr-methodology.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/337654-public-universities-hurt-helped-usnwr-methodology.html</a></p>
<p>There are several areas where the public school numbers often diverge widely from the numbers of similarly ranked private schools. Some work to their benefit (4 discussed below), some to their detriment (1 discussed below). Here are my thoughts:</p>
<p>Numbers that benefit Public Universities</p>
<ol>
<li>Peer Assessment scores (representing 25% of total USNWR rank)
PA scores seem to have a high correlation with research activity. As public schools perform comparatively more research, they are beneficiaries of this favoring. For example, consider the PA scores of a few private schools that have stronger student bodies than many research-oriented public school cousins. </li>
</ol>
<p>Top 40 USNWR Private Schools likely getting shafted by the interpretation of what PA is and the high weighting assigned to PA scores
Notre Dame (3.9)
USC (3.9)
Tufts (3.7)
Wake Forest (3.5)
Brandeis (3.6)
Lehigh (3.2)
Boston College (3.6)
NYU (3.8)
U Rochester (3.4)
Case Western (3.5)</p>
<p>Top 40 USNWR Public Schools PA Scores
UC Berkeley (4.7)
U Michigan (4.5)
U Virginia (4.3)
UCLA (4.3)
U North Carolina (4.2)
U Wisconsin (4.2)</p>
<p>Two Top 40 Public Schools that don’t get much of a bump from PA scores
W&M (3.8)
UC SD (3.8)</p>
<ol>
<li><p>6-Year Graduation Rate (representing 16% of total USNWR rank)
For the USNWR Top 40, the public schools compete very well with the top privates on this measure. But is this a proper comparison? Many people favor state universities because they often provide a cost advantage. However, what is often missed in this calculation is how long it takes to finish college. Many (most?) families will budget for 4 years of college. If 4-year graduation rates were considered rather than 6-year graduation rates, then public universities would compare very differently as public university students often struggle to get the classes they need to complete their requirements for graduation. This has an extension effect and increases the cost of attending the public university. This extended 6-year calculation lowers the bar for this measurement and state universities are the clear beneficiary. </p></li>
<li><p>% of Top 10% high school students (representing 6% of total USNWR rank)
Getting top 10% ranked students is frequently a top priority for state universities and is even a mandated requirement in some states. By contrast, private universities and take a more “holistic” approach to college applications. Consider the following Top 10% numbers for some Top 40 state universities that get a boost from this number.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>UC Berkeley (99%)
U Michigan (89%)
U Virginia (87%)
UCLA (98%)
UC SD (99%)</p>
<p>Consider some Top 40 USNWR private universities that have lower than you might expect numbers of Top 10% students.</p>
<p>Duke (88%)
U Chicago (79%)
Dartmouth (87%)
Cornell (81%)
Northwestern (82%)
Johns Hopkins (81%)
Rice (88%)
Vanderbilt (77%)
Notre Dame (86%)
Carnegie Mellon (71%)
Georgetown (86%)
USC (85%)
Tufts (80%)
Wake Forest (61%)
Brandeis (74%)
Lehigh (78%)
BC (75%)
NYU (68%)</p>
<ol>
<li>Admittance Rate (1.5% of total USNWR rank)
Many posters mistakenly believe that admittance rate is a critical factor in the calculation for USNWR ranks. It is not. Because it is not, some public universities are not penalized for this and many private universities get almost no ranking benefit from their low acceptance rate. I personally believe that the USNWR is about right or maybe slightly underweight, but either way this works to the benefit of the state universities. </li>
</ol>
<p>Some Top 40 USNWR public universities helped by the low weight assigned to acceptance rate</p>
<p>U Michigan (57%)
U Wisconsin (68%)
UC SD (44%)</p>
<p>Some Top 40 USNWR privates are also helped by this low weighting.</p>
<p>U Chicago (40%)
Johns Hopkins (35%)
Emory (37%)
Vanderbilt (35%)
Carnegie Mellon (39%)
Wake Forest (39%)
Brandeis (38%)
Lehigh (41%)
NYU (37%)</p>
<p>Numbers that hurt Public Universities</p>
<ol>
<li>Alumni Giving rate (5% of the total USNWR rank)
While some state universities engender tremendous loyalty from their students and alumni, nearly all of these public schools are negatively impacted by this calculation. The high numbers of state school students and alumni combined with the belief that their tax dollars (for IS students) are already footing the bill cause this number to be relatively useless in making comparisons with smaller, privately funded schools. </li>
</ol>
<p>Public schools in USNWR Top 40 that get shafted by the Alumni Giving numbers</p>
<p>UC Berkeley (14% of alumni give money, ranked 109th)
U Michigan (15%, 105th)
U Virginia (26%, 33rd) The impact to U Virginia is obviously less.
UCLA (15%, 105th)
U North Carolina (23%, 45th)
W&M (25%, 33rd) Same as U Virginia
U Wisconsin (14%, 109th)
UC SD (10%, 163rd)</p>
<p>On balance, I conclude that public universities are HELPED by the USNWR methodology as the positive factors, particularly the Peer Assessment score, are much more heavily weighted in the calculations. If PA is to be maintained as part of the rankings, as others have suggested, it might be useful (and better) to break out the PA scores separately and rank schools without this element.</p>
<p>I have only read the last few posts on this thread so I’m not exactly sure what I’m getting into here…but regarding Duke:</p>
<p>I was talking to a couple of Irish guys today at work who are in the US on a summer work visa and are students at Newcastle and Nottingham unis. They asked where I was going to school and when I said Cambridge one guy responded “Oh…that’s like the Harvard or Duke of the UK.” I have no connection or allegiance to Duke, but I thought that a comparison to Harvard like that says a lot about its international reputation.</p>
<p>Michigan PA 4.5
Duke PA 4.4
NYU PA 3.8</p>
<p>Comprende ead?</p>
<p>Unless the Duke of York is nicknamed the “blue devil” I’m pretty sure they were talking about the university.</p>
<p>UMich had a 42% acceptance rate this year.</p>
<p>And they get owned in SAT scores, endowment, small classes, frosh retention, and probably faculty resources.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Hey, EAD, this’ll really get you. I can count among former coworkers and business acquaintances women who are stay-at-home mothers with impeccable pedigrees. Here are a couple that I personally know (it’s of course a bit skewed to NU just because I"m in the Chicago area):</p>
<p>1) Duke (!) undergrad, Wash U grad
2) Duke undergrad, Northwestern grad
2) Stanford undergrad, Harvard grad
3) Princeton undergrad, Michigan grad
4) Northwestern undergrad, UChicago grad
5) Wellesley undergrad, Harvard grad
6) Northwestern undergrad, Northwestern grad</p>
<p>All of these women had great, 6 figure careers in the working world. All of them, for whatever personal reasons, are at home with their children. Are they not as “successful”? Did the 2 Duke women in particular waste their educations? Why or why not? Should Duke be sorry or ashamed that they admitted them?</p>
<p>Bourne. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. Are you saying that Michigan has a small endowment, low frosh retention, and poor faculty resources? By the way most Michigan students take the ACT not SAT test, and not all classes are huge. Tell me you are joking. Please?</p>
<p>It’s ok pizzagirl. According to ead I’m a racist. You can call him a chauvinist if you’d like to.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl my mother has a U Penn undergrad degree and a Stanford business degree and is a stay at home mother. There is nothing wrong with that, its the path she chose and I think its great. No one says you need to do something with a degree, its just you have more opportunities available to you with one. I know my mother met some incredibly bright, successful and interesting people who are still close in her life all from those great experiences. Also success is a hard thing to measure, but most people tend to measure success by wealth. I am not saying that is right or wrong, but it just is. These degrees open up possibilities in life and by that measurement we rank some as better than others. Most people would die to go to any of these schools and they are all great. Yet, that does not mean we cannot say some are better than others.</p>
<p>I agree Bescraze. HYPSM are all better than Duke.</p>
<p>duke > michigan (lmao this is a safety school)</p>
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</p>
<p>In comparison with the top privates? Yes.</p>