How Does Music Compare to AP Classes?

awesomesauceness · January 20, 2011, 4:34am

Hmm interesting question.
Well i do know that at my school taking marching band for four years gets you out of PE for 2. However, you have to do it afterschool in addition to a class during the day.

Personally, I wouldnt have done it, I would have instead looked for a band outside of school to play in. But hey, im the kid who takes 2-3 college classes outside of highschool every semester, just because about half of the staff in my highschool are pretty crappy (we’re pretty high up on that list of top schools in the nation, teachers think they’re teaching so great and stop teaching at all), so i like doing stuff outside of school and can handle it.

dsultemeier · January 20, 2011, 10:49am

My son has been in choir all four years in high school and also sings in a choir at church. I’ve noticed when we meet with college admissions officers they usually ask if he plans to continue choir in college. He is genuinely interested in singing with some sort of ensemble in college (although not as a music major) so then they suggest auditioning for music scholarships, private lessons, etc. So the admissions people seem to clearly be on the lookout for people to fill the college music ensembles. My son had much better success than I expected with his college admissions as far as acceptances and scholarship offers but it is hard to say how much weight the colleges put on his wanting to continue singing in college.

neuron39 · January 20, 2011, 1:21pm

My son performs, composes, conducts, and teaches, and had done so for a decade before finishing high school. He’s won national awards for music as well. During his HS years his school began to award Honors credit for band. By taking band all four years of HS, he ended up #2 in his class.

He still took 17 AP classes and tests, and ended up at MIT.

My main point is that the student should pursue what makes him/her happy, so if it’s music, don’t sacrifice the interest for college apps. Strategically, re: GPA, you will take a hit, but schools like MIT want kids who pursue what they love and who know how to unwind. IMO class rank and GPA are secondary nowadays to an expansive “EC” like music, though music won’t compensate for less-than-stellar grades, etc.

lateparty · January 20, 2011, 1:23pm

Initially, I read this question entirely differently. I thought it was comparing AP Music Theory vs. music studies/activities “outside of school.”
Aside from music performance, music theory is one component needed to varying degrees by aspiring professional classical musicians.
There is often a misconception that school AP Music Theory is comparable to what one will study at a music conservatory - it isn’t. Therefore, spending time outside of school in the highest-possible-calibre-music opportunities available to the student is advisable for the serious musician (type who wishes to apply to a top music conservatory of School of Music at a major university). One can do the ABRSM curriculum or take music theory courses from a (respected) local private music school or get contacts at a nearby music conservatory or SOM.
After reading the responses, even though I had some sense of this of course, all I have to say is that high school education is so incredibly varied in all respects in the United States, I don’t know how colleges, universities, music conservatories can make sense of anyone’s app.

Marian · January 20, 2011, 6:36pm

Yes, at colleges that do not have strong music major programs. They have to fill their ensembles, and they need enthusiastic, experienced musicians who are majoring in other things to fill those slots.

But if the college has a professional-level music major, the music majors may take up most of the spaces, and other people may be closed out in the auditions.

caroline29 · January 20, 2011, 8:58pm

My school has a nationally recongnized music program. Nearly all of the 20 kids accepted to ivy Leagues last year were involved in either band or orchestra.

Marian · January 21, 2011, 7:10am

Yes to all of that.

But the students who face the dilemma discussed in this thread generally are not those who wish to apply to a top music conservatory.

They’re the ones who have enjoyed being in band, orchestra, or chorus since elementary school and who would like to continue being in the school ensemble because this is an important part of their lives. Some may also have another motivation to participate; although they may not be conservatory-level musicians, they’re good enough to compete for spots in honors ensembles, such as All-State or a county or regional-level honors group, and the eligibility requirements for honors ensembles usually include current enrollment in a music performance course. Most of these kids – even the ones who make All-State – will not major in music performance in college.

What are these kids to do? In many schools, taking the band, orchestra, or chorus course lowers a top student’s GPA (because the course is unweighted) and decreases the rigor of the student’s curriculum (because the course is less rigorous than the AP or honors-level academic elective they could have taken instead).

Yet on the other hand, the only time in you life when you can be in the high school band is when you’re in high school. It seems a shame to give this up.

My daughter didn’t give it up. She stayed in band all four years, thus maintaining her All-State eligibility. She actually qualified for All-State twice and was an alternate in a third year (as well as qualifying for All-County all four years), which retroactively justifies her decision, I suppose. The positive impact of those honors ensembles on her college applications probably outweighed the slight hit to her GPA and the rigor of her curriculum. But there are plenty of kids who enjoy band (or orchestra or chorus) as much as she did but have no hope of (or no interest in) making All-Anything. Should their decision be different?

compmom · January 21, 2011, 9:25am

Yes, often participation in band or other music classes can bring a GPA down.

Our daughter even had to drop a level AND a year of math (down from honors, and down from algebra 2 to geometry, as I remember) in order to fit music theory in her schedule (our school is small). She didn’t care about her GPA, and that is what she wanted to learn about. She ended up at an Ivy League school as a music major regardless.

I agree with the idea that doing music outside of school, at least for the last two years of high school, can be both rewarding and helpful to the concerns people are expressing. Participation in outside lessons, ensembles, choruses or orchestras is great, and classes in theory or music history can be taken at music schools or conservatory preps, where financial aid is usually available.

Many of the kids who do this do not end up at conservatories or even as music majors in a college or university, but for those who love music, these types of activities and classes are much more enriching and inspiring than the music available through school band, for example.

We believe our kids should contribute to the school music groups, but during senior year, our daughter could not do it all. She ended up taking 4 classes only (no science) at school, did not do band at all, and did music classes on weekends at a conservatory. She did not do this for admissions purposes, but because she was driven to learn some things that she needed, that weren’t available any other way.

I think the colleges understand this issue. In fact, if kids take band or orchestra or whatever and their GPA goes down, or their class rank, I doubt the colleges care that much. Much better to do music in any way available to you if you love it.

On the other hand, if you don’t love it, and are only doing music class/band to “get in,” then I don’t know what is bette for admissions purposes, meaning whether it is smarter to continue with band or take more AP’s. I guess it depends on how many AP’s you’ve taken and whether you are taking the “most rigorous” program available.

One issue that comes up is scholarships for, say, students in the top 2 of the class. If music classes drop a student to #3, they can miss out on the award. I hate this stuff, but it is a practical reality.

I guess I wish, overall, that anyone who loves music can find a way to participate, whether in school or out, regardless of the effect on college chances!!

SimpleLife · January 21, 2011, 9:54am

^^Exactly, Marian. The question posed on this thread is a dilemma for the kids who love music, are (usually) great at music, AND who want to major in something other than music in college.

Those going to conservatories don’t really have to worry as much about their academic standing – their talent, experience, and audition are what count. (Not that they’re not usually smart, hard-working, top-performing students anyway.)

And there are some kids, who DO play at a conservatory-level, who don’t want to major in music. It’d be a total shame to give up that passion and talent in high school to play the college-admissions game.

I have one conservatory son majoring in music right now, and one conservatory-level son in high school who does not want to major in music. Both have thoroughly enjoyed their pre-college experiences in music. They would tell anybody they were the most meaningful, formative, engaging experiences of their young lives. One was top 5% out of 750 kids, with very high SATs and ACTs; the other was number 1 out of 800 kids with very-near-perfect SATs and ACTs. Both great students; both loaded up on APs as much as they could, given their required music classes; both are very happy.

The college conservatory kid did not face any obstacles as a result of his pre-college dedication to music. His auditions ruled his course, and he had the academics to enter his desired schools.

The jury is still out as to whether the high schooler will face any obstacles for not taking more than all-core APs (“just” 9 of them – they weren’t offered in every academic class). I will say that he recently learned, from an admissions counselor at one college, that their scholarship committee actually counts AP classes and (I think I got this right) uses that number to weight a final figure that decides which kids go on to compete for the major full-tuition scholarship at that campus! I was surprised. That seems to be a rather narrow way to look at a group of applicants. But that’s their call.

There is no additional weight given to music at that college, even with experiences and awards that speak volumes (to us). Our whole family felt a little disappointed. If YOU were choosing, would you rather “promote” a student with 12 APs, or one with 9 APs and proven accomplishment in music – or dance – or whatever else? And which kid is going to bring more visibility and “spirit” to the campus?

On the other hand, there ARE colleges (MIT, some of the ivy’s, Stanford come to mind) who value a student’s passion outside of academics more than the silly number of APs. So maybe it comes out in the wash. :)

bandgeek24601 · January 21, 2011, 9:55am

Interesting question.

I go to a school where music is both an extracurricular and a class–I’ve done marching band for four years and pit band for the musical for three years. To participate in the extracurriculars, it is required that one take a Band class, except in a few rare cases. Our school’s band program is time-consuming and we do well in competition, but we don’t do well on the individual level–only one or two people a year make it to Regionals, and never on my instrument (flute/piccolo), so participating in Regionals really wasn’t an option for me for this year. However, I was really concerned about taking a fourth year of music, but not for class rank reasons–there were just too many academic electives, such as AP Psychology, that I wanted to take, and I had learned little in band class the past three years. I ended up getting a special waiver from my band director to participate in the extracurriculars without the class. To do so, I ended up turning down a leadership position in marching band (and I desperately needed leadership on my activities sheet) as well as the honor of being first or second chair in a section of almost thirty people. It kind of sucked being a senior non-leader in marching band, and my academic schedule is somewhat overwhelming (6 APs+required honors business elective)

Was it worth it? I doubt either the extra AP class or the extra leadership position would have been the game-changing factor in my college admissions. All I know is that I get to explore academic areas I hadn’t been exposed to before that I’m now considering as my college major, and, best of all, I don’t have to see my ******* marching band director every day in class. So even if it was the wrong thing to do from an admissions standpoint (and honestly, it probably was), it was the right thing to do for me.

Lafalum84 · January 21, 2011, 10:05am

DO NOT EVER PLAN YOUR LIFE IN HIGH SCHOOL BASED ON WHAT YOU THINK A COLLEGE ADMISSIONS OFFICER WANTS TO SEE. You get one shot at high school - it needs to be the experience YOU want. A passion for music will come through on your application anyway.

Also, I agree with the poster who said its not an either/or proposition. At most, a music class takes up one elective per year. That’s ONE less AP class you can take each year. It should still be possible to put together a rigorous academic schedule and maintain participation in music, if that’s what you love.

At most selective colleges, a student with a very high GPA in a challenging curriculum and a long history of participation in an EC (with depth - not just band or chorus as a class, but ensembles, etc) and high test scores will be accepted.

For the 20% or lower acceptance rate colleges, it’s a crap-shoot anyway. Those colleges will be making decisions based on factors you cannot predict (For example, the marketing study says they need more kids from the mid-West. Also they’re over-subscribed in engineering and under-subscribed in history. ETC).

So if you love music, take music. Just make sure the rest of your classes are as challenging as you can handle and get good grades in them.

Think about how you would feel if you gave up music, gave up the time with the friends you’ve made in that group, and then “dream school” turns you down anyway?

uskoolfish · January 21, 2011, 10:07am

My D took plenty of AP classes and had a wide array of leadership roles/ community service. Ultimately, it was her involvement in music that separated her application and certainly lead to several merit scholarships.

She started an co-ed accapella group as a freshman in HS, and was it’s leader for 4 years. Although she was also involved as an officer in Student Governmnet (and was President of the school senior year), on college interviews and interviews for scholarships, it was always the accapella group that was of interest to interviewers. Actually on one interview, an admissions officer asked her about the web site she developed for the group and went to the site in the middle of the interview to watch them perform.

Also, she made All-State in music which awarded her recognition as having achieved at more than just the local level.

aefitzMT · January 21, 2011, 11:44am

I completely agree that upper level fine arts classes should be getting honors credit. I’ve been in my schools highest choir since freshman year and have also taken honors and AP classes. The amount of time, commitment, and talent it takes to be in an ensemble like that completely outweighs an AP class, yet we get no reward academically for it. Also, the things I’ve learned in some of my art classes is more than I’ve learned in a whole year of an honors. Yes, there’s AP Music Theory and AP Art classes, but its not the same as a regular classes. There’s a lot more book work and technique, rather than performing or creating from the heart. I also am a big part of our theatre program, ask AP students if they stay at the school until 9pm every night working. Their answer will be “no”. Ask any theatre student, “of course”. And yet, no academic rewards are given. Actually, we have one “theatre” class considered and honors, INTRO to Communications. That’s it. Seems awfully unfair to me. Its definitely possible to rank high having taken lots of arts classes, but its not easy. My boyfriend is in our Wind Ensemble and Percussion classes his senior year and has made Allregion and Allstate, however, he’s also in AP Calculus, AP Music Theory, AP US Gov’t and Politics, AP Economics, and AP English Lit and Comp and is number 10 in a class of 550. Whereas I’m in Intermediate Art, Play Production, Chorale(I’ve made Allregion and Allstate every year, first chair), Physics(We no longer offer AP for this year), Psychology, Humanities (Honors), AP Gov’t, AP Economics, AP US Gov’t and Politics, and AP English Lit and Comp. My course load is just as rigorous, but because less of my classes are considered honors or AP, I rank about 15 spots lower than him.

helixmom · January 21, 2011, 1:15pm

Participating at an elite level will help however, just taking a fluffy choir class and getting an A will waste time that would be better spent on a science, math or AP Lit class. Performing arts bound students may derive more from this, however, if you are applying to a performing arts college /program then I would expect to see participation and competition at an elite level.

helixmom · January 21, 2011, 1:17pm

@uskoolfish: this is what I characterize as the elite level. and congratulations on this. …btw

uskoolfish · January 21, 2011, 1:30pm

Thanks! And in the end she did pursue music performance. She is a junior in vocal performance at NYU. Being in a university setting, she has taken many academic classes and has a minor in both business and English.

It was a hard choice to make…she was also accepted to Barnard and Brandeis, but would not have been able to study music/ performance at the level that is available to her at NYU.

And she was able to take advantage of a talent merit scholarship that would not have been available for academic achievement.

Keilexandra · January 21, 2011, 3:41pm

Disclaimer: Anecdotes are notoriously unreliable.

That said, my own anecdote: I went a selective math/science public high school and was part of an “artsy” minority that committed to 4 years of cross-registered Band class. Approximately 12 people in my class applied SCEA to Yale; all except 2 were deferred, which doesn’t mean much since Yale, unlike Stanford, loves deferrals. The other two, who were outright rejected: myself and a friend who had also taken 4 years of band. I was humanities-focused, he was math/science-focused, and we both had 4.0 UW GPAs with as many AP courses as you can take at my school without 1) taking summer courses at the university to replace core classes and skip to AP, or 2) dropping Band. Everyone else who applied was pretty similar, profile-wise–all very strong academic candidates, all marked as “most rigorous curriculum” (our counselor’s benchmark for this designation was 4 AP courses, an absolute rather than relative criteria).

So we were the two people rejected from Yale, in a pool of otherwise similar candidates. We were also the only two in the SCEA pool from our school who had taken 4 years of Band, and as a result, had that many fewer AP courses. (After the dust settled, Yale admitted no one at all from deferral or RD.) I ultimately ended up at Swarthmore, my friend at Cornell–so clearly, we weren’t only academic hacks. Music is the only distinguishing factor that I can note, since Yale singled us out particularly.

I don’t regret my choice (in fact, I applied EDII to Swarthmore and am extremely happy, since I always wanted an LAC). Like Marian’s D, I stayed in Band mainly to qualify for All-State, and those were consistently the best three days of the year in my musical career. But I also no longer believe university adcoms when they claim that a musical commitment doesn’t hurt you–perhaps if the music is an extracurricular, but if it ends up replacing AP courses, they don’t seem to judge that decision very highly.

SimpleLife · January 21, 2011, 4:52pm

^Nice anecdote, Keilexandra. Thanks for sharing. Yep, music is not always greatly respected. I’m sorry you were one of two “rejects” at your school (no offense ), but I’m thrilled that you’re very happy where you are. Good for you! (Nice job on the famous NMF thread, by the way!)

@Lafalum84, For kids who are on a block schedule in high school (like my kids), a music class takes up, at least, TWO whole classes per year, if you can believe that! Block schedule kids take a full year of one course in just one semester. So math, for instance, might go from Aug-early January. And then you won’t see math again until the following academic year. And so on. Block schedule kids take four courses per semester. Orchestra, band, and choir kids are expected to be in their ensemble classes each semester. They are therefore taking 1/4 of their academic load in music. And two potential AP courses (or other electives) are affected. It can be a heavy hit, in terms of how many extra APs a kid can fit into their schedule. But still … it’s worth it to a lot of kids. Music is huge here. And I’m glad.

Totally agree that one should do what they love, not what they guess college admissions might like. :)

Nonexistent · January 21, 2011, 6:59pm

I have actually never thought of music as a detriment to taking other classes because my school offers music classes at weird times. Orchestra meets during “zero hour,” which occurs before the normal school day. The most advanced singers have a class that meets after school (though I believe they have to simultaneously be in choir for a semester, which is during the day). I believe for Honors Chamber Music, which is for the more advanced musicians, they meet independently with the rest of their trio/quartet during lunch with the instructor. One would still get credit and a grade for all of these classes.

My school probably does this intentionally, so that music classes don’t conflict with other classes.

Lafalum84 · January 21, 2011, 7:22pm

@simplelife, I didn’t think about schools with block scheduling - I guess this is another downside to a block scheduling plan. Glad my kid’s hs didn’t have that!

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