<p>I have a mother who has been widowed for many years. She is getting on in age, and if something should happen to her (serious illness leaving her incapacited for a length of time, or death), I have little information. She is a very private person, who sadly trusts nobody and that includes her children to some extent (how much distrust, I don’t really know, but enough to keep all financial information a secret). Her children have never given her any reason for a lack of trust and would never steal from her. She is a very controlling person, and cannot stand the idea of giving up the slightest bit of control over her own destiny/assets should the time arise that she can no longer manage her finances or life decisions. </p>
<p>I have over years managed to get from her: a copy of a will, something that looks like a contract for a grave site, copy of a page from her passport, power of attorney for her children to conduct banking/financial transactions. She also gave me a living will, health care proxy and a copy of her long term care insurance. Now I that I have all of this, I still do not have a key to her home, know if she has a safety deposit box or where it is, have no idea where any of her bank accounts might be, or her account numbers. I asked for this information countless times and she was vague (ie: “oh, you know I bank at Citibank”). I told her that I would like her to write names of banks, branch locations where accounts were opened with account numbers. Today when I asked she began shouting and shaking her finger back and forth (nearly into my eye). She was clearly in lack of control of her emotions and very angry. I tried to calmy discuss the matter, but I do not whether I will get anywhere. Any suggestions?
I told her that I need the info so if she becomes very ill, so I could pay her bills. This calmed her down slightly, but not a whole bunch. She is a very cynical person. I fear that if I don’t get the info I need now, I won’t get it from her. I think that it will only be worse to ask if she should become terminally ill. My husband says, that I need to face that fact that she does not want to give us the information willingly, and it will wind up with all kinds of legal hassles down the road.</p>
<p>Maybe you could suggest that she write the information down somewhere and that she keeps it in a place together with all the other important documents and keys in a place that you could access only if she is very ill and you need to have the information. But that as long as she is in passable health, you would not be able to get to the information? Give her the list of the needed information, then she can fill it in, then put away the list.</p>
<p>Ask her if she’d be willing to discuss this information with an attorney. The attorney could then keep it all confidential until such time as it becomes necessary for someone other than her to make decisions about her own affairs. She may trust someone she’s paying to protect her interests.</p>
<p>Years ago my parents made a list, put it in a sealed envelope and gave it to me. It listed everything I would need and the combination to the safe where all important papers were (insurance policies, birth certs, etc). I never opened it because my father made me joint owner of everything when my mother died and we went through the safe together. But it was a very good idea.</p>
<p>If something happens to me my husband knows about most stuff but I am sure a bill for something will come in for something I have forgoten to write down for him.</p>
<p>I do like the idea of keeping the list at the attorney’s office but make sure she has a second copy somewhere. My attorney will not keep the only copy of anything - he says a fire can happen anywhere.</p>
<p>Interesting ideas. She claims that she trusts me, but frankly on some level I don’t believe that. If I don’t get anywhere, I might propose Cheva’s solution. I am going to get a “list” of suggested items from an estate attorney that I know. This way, the “list” of what one should do to prepare for illness/death won’t come from me, but from him. Perhaps she will be more open to thinking about what is not on the list, rather than arguing with me and postponing facing her own mortality/morbidity.</p>
<p>If you have a copy of the will, is an executor named? If the executor is not you or one of your sibs, you might then probe her for contact info of the executor, to have in your posession when the need arises. You might also suggest that the executor be given a list of the accounts, locations, etc. </p>
<p>My father, a widower, is very closed mouth about his finances. But at least my brother and I are named in the will as co-executors, we each have keys to the house, co-signers on the safe deposit box, power of attorney documents should/when the need arises, and my father does have a logbook with all account, investment info, pension, insurance, cemetary plot, and military service info.</p>
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<li> You already have the power of attorney, which is the most important legal thing. Is it effective now, or is it a “springing” power that takes effect only when she becomes incapacitated? If it is presently effective, you can go to the bank (with the POA) and get information directly. In my experience, banks are reasonably cooperative. They are careful to have everything documented, but they are absolutely aware that as people age they need help, and that the line is usually clear only in retrospect. They would much rather have a relative involved than wind up facing a claim that the bank should have done something.</li>
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<p>Of course, that won’t tell you where hidden accounts, etc., are, but it’s a start.</p>
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<li><p>Chedva’s suggestion about having her talk to an attorney would have been mine, too. The problem is that anything she gives the attorney is privileged, and the attorney has a lot of trouble giving it to you later without clear instructions from your mother. And if your mother becomes incapacitated, she won’t be able to give any instructions at all. Most estate-planning attorneys will play a little fast and loose here if they know the family well, but the best thing would be to have the attorney convince her to give him the information, and then authorize him to give it to you.</p></li>
<li><p>This is so tough! I’ve been through it with my mother-in-law, who has Alzheimer’s. At least at a fairly early point she decided to trust my wife and to give her the relevant information. My mother, who has Parkinson’s, is a harder nut. She is convinced that everyone is trying to get her declared incompetent, and one of her responses is to hoard information. She isn’t incompetent, but she isn’t completely lucid, either, and she has lost a lot of money to various scams in the past few years.</p></li>
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<p>There are books that have “fill in the blanks” pages to record all that information (I just looked at one on Amazon called the “Senior Organizer” but there are others out there). Maybe she would be OK with filling forms out and then sealing it closed and putting it somewhere where you could get it if needed.</p>
<p>There’s a reasonable chance that she won’t tell you anything, and she won’t talk with an attorney, either. You will have to deal with this when she does become incapacitated, or when she passes away. When one of these things happens, it will be a hassle, but the problems won’t be insurmountable. This depends on just how large her assets are, of course.</p>
<p>JHS, the power of attorney is effective immediately. I would never go to the bank (if I knew which ones, but I do have some idea now about some branches). I don’t want to add any fuel to her fire. I hope that she will take the leap of faith to trust me enough with her account numbers. I don’t need to know her net worth. My gut tells me that she would not even be okay with the attorney having having account numbers. I know that at the very least she would fear that the attorney would enter/store the information on a computer. She would be so fearful of any personal info being stored on a computer. She does not use her own computer. It is a piece of furniture that just sits and she yells at her grandchildren for breaking it if they try to use it. </p>
<p>She is mentally competent for the moment, but I do see changes in her emotions, and she is becoming much more difficult to interact with.</p>
<p>This is very difficult, but you have all given me some ideas about how I might approach her. I will begin with trying to directly get the information I need. The last thing that I will ask for is the key to her home. The moment that I do that she will shut down altogether. Hopefully the check list that I am going to get from an estate attorney will get her thinking about giving me the information.</p>
<p>Oh, as far as executor, my sib and I are co-executors.</p>
<p>Is there anyone your mom listens to (a friend, paster, etc.) that can approach the subject so that emotions stay out of it? Just the need to have everything documented is the important part. I’ve encountered some seniors who take on the “my kids only care about what they’ll get when I’m gone” mentality (when it couldn’t be further from the truth).</p>
<p>H became POA for his disabled mother when his father died from a fight with cancer 3 years ago. Even though his dad was very organized, and had tried to get “everything in order” as much as he could, there were still a few surprises as H went through everything. If she doesn’t trust a lawyer, if you can get your mother to complete “the list” of items and put it in a sealed envelope at her house, where you know where it is, at least…it’s a start. Or, perhaps you could get her to store it in a safe deposit box?</p>
<p>Drop the idea of a key altogether, if it’s going to push your mother over the edge. In case of emergency, if you can’t contact her, or get her to answer/open the door, you can call the police… If something happens to her, and you need to get into her house, that’s not that hard, either (unfortunately)… With my own mother, I have a lot of entries in the column of “it’s not worth it to argue with her about”…She frustrates my siblings, and an aunt who is close to her, but I’ve pointed out that she’s been stubborn as a mule for this long, why should we expect her to change now?</p>
<p>With her, as well as my mother-in-law, I’ve noticed that some (negative) personality characteristerics that were always there, tend to become more pronounced on their “bad” days. Negativity, stubbornness, the tendency to criticize and/or worry… But, the good stuff is all still there; it’s just sometimes more challenging to see it.</p>
<p>astrophysicsmom, I did forget about the key for now. If I can get all of the other info from her, I can ask for her key last, and I will need to give her a rest from all of this before I approach her for her key. If I ask for it now, I won’t get the other stuff that I will need should there come a point where she can no longer take care of herself. </p>
<p>Right now she thinks she will live forever. She wanted to move to a place that was so idiotic for her, and I could not talk her out of it. The reason she changed her mind was that a couple she is friendly with did not buy a home in this community. As soon as they backed out, she did too. It was a retirement community, but many of the residents are much younger than my mother and most are married. They do not even offer a shuttle, or small store on site for milk and bread. They assume that everyone there is self sufficient and driving. My mother still drives, but I do not know for how long she will be able to drive. Where she lives now she has access to buses, and taxis. She can also get food delivered for a fee. She lives in a great location for an older person, but it is not a retirement community.</p>
<p>If you have POA you absolutely can go to the bank with POA in hand, and explain to the bank manager, that you just need to know account numbers because of your moms getting on in years. It is a legal document and you have the right to the information. I would look at it as more of “protecting” your mother rather than snooping or trying to get info. You can also consult with an elder lawyer.</p>
<p>milkandsugar, It makes sense to me, but if my mother heard that I stopped in at one of her local banks she would have a big problem with that! Besides, she keeps a very small amount of money in local banks anyway.</p>
<p>I absolutely get what you are saying. Our mothers never want us to think that they are not still in charge. I can just see myself when I get that age. OMG.</p>
<p>I have been in the same situation. How old is your mother? When my mother died and my father was left alone, he was the same way - probably worse being a man. He grew up in a time, where men had control of everything (including not wanting my mother to work) and the thought of him losing that control was difficult for him to swallow but he did. My in - laws helped with this and got him to do some things he would never have done. My father never trusted anybody including me - his only child until he was > 85. He’s 91 now, lives on his own and takes the bus everywhere not wanting to depend on anybody else. But at least I know his finances and am the co-holder of his accounts.</p>
<p>As I give this more thought, the way to approach this is to find somebody your mother’s age who she trusts and will listen to and who also has done what you think needs to be done. Much as some of us wouldn’t trust anybody over the age of 30 once upon a time - they don’t trust us either. They have all heard horror stories not just from their generation but even from our grandparents’ generation. They will trust somebody their age.</p>
<p>DocT, I just do not know what her friends think. Also, she is so private, that this is a topic that she won’t feel comfortable discussing with friends. I think that she is probably ashamed to tell her friends that she has not given her children basic financial information. Thankfully, I do have someone in mind if it comes down to that. I am hopeful that today I have turned a corner, and she is realizing that she will need to trust her children with information that she never shared before. She wore the pants in her marriage, so she was always the one that handled paying all of the bills. My mother has a lot of strong ideas about control in general, and regarding money.</p>
<p>Older people talk about this stuff all the time -unfortunately usually in a negative way. My father is so tight with money, he’ll spend the day trying to save a nickel - literally. Does she have brothers or sisters who can talk to her? Perhaps an elder law attorney may be beneficial. Just remember you will always be a little child to her no matter what you do or your age.</p>