<p>Cardinal Fang-
I do mean no disrespect to your beliefs. That is what makes this world of faith so curious. We each in our own ways rely on whatever we have to get through this life we lead.
I know Atheists face the same struggles and deal with them in their own ways.
And I totally agree that finding God or not finding God comes to all of us in what I like to refer to as the bumps in the road of life. I do have many moments where…the jury is out on God.
But today whether it was God , fate, good karma or whatever…things went my brothers way.</p>
<p>Garland: I am so sorry for your loss, and for the added pain caused by that self-justifying letter.</p>
<p>Thanks, ilc. I hope your brother has a speedy recovery and is soon back on the bike.</p>
<p>I get stuck on the God thing. What I am working on is believing in a power greater than myself. I am learning to let go of things that I don’t have control over. I find great hope in the serenity prayer. It has taught me when I begin asking or praying for outcomes that the one person I have control over is myself. So when I begin obsessing over other people I tell myself to turn it over. I don’t turn it over to God since I don’t have a clear idea about God. I let it go out into the atmosphere. The outcome is beyond my control. When I let go of the outcome of others I can be healthier and happier. Also when I need to make a decision I try to take the time to meditate and let the answers come to me. Sometimes the answer I receive in that quiet time is that the answer will come to me in time.
I also believe prayer and meditation can help us to discover the strength we have inside of us. The belief that even if bad things happen in our lives we are strong and will get through them.
I also believe I don’t have to believe in a set God to receive the gifts of this world.
I don’t have a problem with prayer. I do have a problem with people who believe all outcomes are due to God.</p>
<p>Adad–thank you! We will never get over the pain–she was an extraordinary human being. A lot of good work has been done in her memory–she was a giant in the environmental world. A park in Ann Arbor has even been named after her. But I know that none of that is the “reason” for her death. The world is diminished by her absence.</p>
<p>I have not read all of the responses. I would just like to answer your original questions from what I recall being taught in a Christian church:</p>
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<p>Evil events arise from sin; sin brings injustice as well, so evil events can happen to good people. Prayer for safety and protection might have averted tragedies. Yes, it makes sense to pray after the fact, for healing.</p>
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<p>Jesus said that God cares for all, He lets the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and we should follow His example. And yes, God knows what we need. However, He perhaps offers additional blessings to those who place their full trust in Him, one way being through prayer. </p>
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<p>Prayer from one person: I don’t know. Jesus said not to pile up words in vain repetitions in prayer, and the prayer he taught, the Lord’s Prayer, is short. However, He also told a parable that showed that persistence in prayer can matter. As below, it is the faith, not the number of words, that matters.</p>
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<p>It wouldn’t be the number of prayers per se but the faith with which people pray. Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard seed could move a mountain, so one apparently doesn’t need huge crowds to make an effective prayer.</p>
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<p>I personally would say that whatever one prays for in the Christian life must be consistent with the two great commandments: Love God with all heart, mind and strength, and Love neighbor as self. If someone can pray for a new BMW consistent with those two commandments, I am not the one to stop them.</p>
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<p>Regarding empirical tests of the efficacy of prayer: I believe that all such efforts are misguided. My view is that prayer will never be proven to be effective. If prayer were ever to be proven to be effective, it would no longer be a matter of faith.</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang kind of beat me to it, but here is an interesting essay discussing the malarkey about “no atheists in foxholes”:
[Atheism</a> & Foxholes: There Are No Atheists in Foxholes; Danger Causes Atheists to Cry Out to God, Find Jesus](<a href=“http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/a/AtheistsFoxhole.htm]Atheism”>Atheism Myths and Misconceptions)</p>
<p>Another longer (2+ pages) essay on the no-atheists-in-foxholes myth:</p>
<p>Why Atheists Don’t Turn to Religion When Faced with Death or Disaster
The notion that ‘there are no atheists in foxholes’ isn’t just mistaken, it’s bigoted and ugly; a denial of atheists’ humanity and the reality of our experience with death.
[Why</a> Atheists Don’t Turn to Religion When Faced with Death or Disaster | Belief | AlterNet](<a href=“http://www.alternet.org/belief/145451/why_atheists_don’t_turn_to_religion_when_faced_with_death_or_disaster?page=1]Why”>http://www.alternet.org/belief/145451/why_atheists_don’t_turn_to_religion_when_faced_with_death_or_disaster?page=1)</p>
<p>The author makes this very interesting point:
"But I want to add something more – something that often gets left out of the conversation about foxholes and deathbed conversions.</p>
<p>I want to point out what an ugly argument this is.</p>
<p>What would you think if someone made this argument to a person of a different faith? “Sure, you believe in Judaism now – but when your plane is going down, you’ll turn to your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”</p>
<p>Is that an appropriate thing to say? Or is it religious bigotry, pure and simple? Regardless of what you personally believe about Jesus Christ and his ability to comfort people during plane crashes … would you renounce this argument as insensitive and tone-deaf at best, callous and inhumane at worst?</p>
<p>So how it is any different to make this argument to atheists?</p>
<p>The “You’ll change your tune when you’re looking death in the face” trope has a Schadenfreude quality to it that is truly ugly. It takes a sadistic, “I told you so” glee in the potential suffering of others. It has an almost hopeful quality that’s deeply unsettling. “Someday, you’ll be sick and dying with a terrible illness, or you’ll be in a terrifying accident, or the person you love most in the world will be gone from your life forever … and then I’ll be proven right! Then you’ll know the glory and majesty of the Lord! In your face!” "</p>
<p>“A 9 year old dying of leukemia, a teenager being killed in a tragic car crash, or a baby born with horrible birth defects all haven’t accumulated a lot of sin to be repenting for, and the God I believe in is not punishing them for their actions.”</p>
<p>Sorry - I wasn’t clear. I believe that they are being punished for sins from previous births. We believe in re-incarnation, so maybe the 9 year old dying from leukemia committed sin in a past life.</p>
<p>Sorry - I wasn’t clear. I believe that they are being punished for sins from previous births. We believe in re-incarnation, so maybe the 9 year old dying from leukemia committed sin in a past life.</p>
<p>That line of reasoning doesn’t make sense to me at all, because if that was true, how would dying young, give that soul a chance to redeem itself?</p>
<p>Just trying to catch up on this thread. What thoughtful and respectful posts!!!</p>
<p>Again, sorry I wasn’t clear emeraldkity4 - I mean that they didn’t repent in their previous birth. The idea of incarnation is one of original sin; we are not pure when we are born because we carry the effects of sin from previous births.</p>
<p>So many great posts, very refreshing to read these. In trying to add to this discussion, I also am sometimes perplexed by athletes’ references to God. But I did read an article once that explained that many of the athletes’ actions are to give the glory to God, to give thanks to God that they were able to perform and put their God-given talents to their best use and not to say thank you for letting me win, or thank you for that homerun. To some people these things may not seem very different.</p>
<p>When my first child was born with severe birth defects and we were told that he would probably not survive a week, one of the best gifts that I received was the book “When Bad Things Happen to Good People” by Rabbi Howard Kushner. It changed my thinking away from feeling sorry for myself because of my situation, and made me choose to embrace every moment that I had with my son. So, for the 30 days that we had him, I was actually very happy and I can remember that time with joy. The book makes the argument that by Adam and Eve’s choice, we have free will, and that allows for evil and pain and bad things to exist in the world. These things are not of God’s making, but are allowed to exist by our choice and how we deal with them are also of our choice. Prayer is part of this process by opening ourselves to conversation with God, to search for His will and make it part of our lives.</p>
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Thanks for posting this!
As a Roman Catholic I believe in Free Will. God gave this to us back in the Garden of Eden.<br>
God made us and loves us all - even when we are bad. He WANTS us to be good of course and our just reward for behaving and accepting his Grace is, of course, Heaven.</p>
<p>I confess that I do not understand neo-Calvinsim and those who profess that all you need is to pray and it’s “God’s will”. I believe just the opposite that God has given us the gift to be Human, to live our lives, making mistakes along the way and offers Redemption.
Those who go through life blaming everything on “God’s will” have an excuse for their own failures.</p>
<p>RadDad1 - thanks for posting Rabbi Kushner’s book. Suffering is not a punishment from God. God is loving not vengeful. This I believe.</p>
<p>In that context - prayer is a conversation with God. God can and does perform miracles but we don’t get to choose how and why. God hears us all - even the trivial stuff. Since he is omnipresent - he gets it; but he chooses to allow us to live a human life.
When my mother died, I reminded God of all the goodness she shared while on earth and ask that he find her worthy of Heaven.
While I believe that God does not bargain - I have been know to attempt to bargain. But then again, I am human with human failings.</p>
<p>I am atheist, but I think people pray because in one way or another, it provides comfort of connection/protection/etc.</p>
<p>People of faith don’t pray for things simply because we know that things are of little concern to God and his followers. When my son became very ill I prayed throughout the day and night. I prayed for my sons strength and for our families strength. My sons health was in Gods hands. I never questioned Gods existance as some do. I felt his presence with me all the time. He gave me the courage to help my son through the hardset thing he ever had to go through. For that I thank God.</p>
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<p>There are a few atheists who pray, but there’s a fine line between prayer and meditation. I don’t know where that line is, but I’m thinking of a few examples:</p>
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<li><p>People who engage in prayer rituals, but who doubt the literal truth of their religions’ teachings. I think many Buddhists, Catholics, and Jews are in this group.</p></li>
<li><p>People who engage in prayer rituals, but who openly disavow all religious beliefs, such as members of the Church of Satan, who plainly state that they are atheists who simply enjoy the ritual expression of their atheistic principles.</p></li>
<li><p>People who pray to an impersonal force, such as Taoists or Zen Buddhists, seeking a connection with nature or the universe, rather than with any conscious entity that can receive the prayer and respond in an intelligible way. (I distinguish this from meditation meant to merely “center oneself” or reduce one’s heart rate or blood pressure, as these do not necessarily involve a belief in the supernatural.)</p></li>
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<p>So, is prayer just a form of meditation? Or are they distinct from one another? If so, then what is the essential difference? A belief in the supernatural? (I would consider God supernatural, in the sense that God is beyond our five senses, not in the sense that God is not part of the natural universe.)</p>
<p>I go to mass weekly. Although I don’t formerly pray much during the week, I find that hour each weekend is important to me. When I start my prayers, I thank God for giving me a good week and if it hasn’t been a good one, I thank him for giving me the strength to meet the challenges the week provided. I thank him for giving me a good life, a good husband and good children. I ask him to help my children make good decisions and to give me the strength to be a good role model to my children and my students. I ask him for help and patience in dealing with my elderly father. I feel truly blessed that God has given me this wonderful life even though I feel unworthy. I make mistakes every week and have made some major ones in my life, but God continues to give to me and I am truly thankful for his blessings.</p>
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<p>I think there are many athletes whose goals don’t include winning, but simply putting in their personal best or playing up to their normal potential. Not everyone who prays before a sports event is asking to win.In fact, I believe MANY athletes are aware that they are not the best on the field and are simply hoping to do their best. When I ran a 5K recently, I basically prayed that same prayer, though I’ve not seen it before. I sure didn’t have any hopes or expectations of winning, I just wanted to finish the race no slower than my previous personal best. As a matter of fact, I knew there was no way I would win my age group. It was not even in the realm of possibility in my mind.</p>
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<p>So what? Maybe those athletes prayed that God would allow them to do the best they are capable of. If they believe that their prayers were answered, and wanted to express gratitude for what they believed was an answered prayer, why would anyone care?</p>
<p>If God could allow the athletes to do the best they were capable of, he could also not allow them from doing the best they are capable of. How come we never hear from the guy who fumbled the ball that ended up a touchdown for the other side or the guy who pitched the walk-off home run blaming God for preventing them from winning? How come God gets the credit but not the blame? Omnipotent is omnipotent, after all.</p>