<p>What? 4 years? Nothing happens in 4 years! :)</p>
<p>I know what you’re trying to say, but some things do change in 4 years, however insignificant the changes may be.
The avg. SAT score, # of faculty members, financial situations, etc. may likely change.
Example: Wash. U.'s SAT range and % of top 10% students in HS climbed from 1250-1420, 77% to 1320-1480, 91% in about 5 years. Quite a change, me thinks.</p>
<p>Barrons & Mackinaw,</p>
<p>Ivy reject popularity. Please! I have friends who didn’t get into UVa and went to Penn, Cornell, and Columbia. UMich is FAAAARRRRR easier to get into. </p>
<p>Like what Int’l 85 mentioned, there are a number of LACs who don’t have Nobel Prize winners, but offer an amazing undergrad education. I would choose Amherst and Williams over a huge, impersonal college that offers mediocre financial aid and only graduates 85% of its undergrads - which equals 3,600 students from each class who don’t get that degree. Too bad for them. Some education! I guess Nobel Prizes and other such awards are more important than graduating one’s students.</p>
<p>Remember we’re talking undergrad education here, and UVa is stellar.</p>
<p>Also, my friend Elise who’s from New Jersey was in UMich’s honors program and transferred to UVa. She thought Michigan was too huge and impersonal (nearly double the size of UVa) and felt UVa gave her a better education.</p>
<p>I have nothing against Michigan but I have to chip in when people make unfounded statements about a school (namely my alma mater) which they really know nothing about and make ignorant proclamations that theirs contributes more to knowledge, which is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Oops, ignore “from each class.” What I meant to say is that from the total of 24,000 Michigan undergrads, 15% don’t end up graduating, which is 3,600 students.</p>
<p>My statement as to contribution to knowledge is based on numerous facts and stats.</p>
<p>Here is one recent ranking that relies heavily on research productivity and publications which equals contributions to knowledge.</p>
<p><a href=“http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/Top%20100%20North%20&%20Latin%20American%20Universities.pdf[/url]”>http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/Top%20100%20North%20&%20Latin%20American%20Universities.pdf</a></p>
<p>Another good indicator of more practical contributions is the number of patents a school garners. UI had 39, UM 64, and UVa 17 in the last year reported. Prior years are similar.</p>
<p><a href=“http://chronicle.com/prm/premium/stats/autm/autm_results.php?Sort_Type=4&Year=2003[/url]”>http://chronicle.com/prm/premium/stats/autm/autm_results.php?Sort_Type=4&Year=2003</a></p>
<p>barrons,
So what’s the point of providing those data, may I ask?
Just providing a plain fact? Or trying to prove that UVA is worse than UIUC and Michigan? If latter is the case, your data are insufficient.</p>
<p>Just justifying my statement regarding contributions to knowledge. It all goes back to the OP’s statement that UI and UM are “lesser state schools”. In many ways they are greater state schools. For ug only it’s a mixed bag. I would say for straight liberal arts and business UVa holds its own or better. For many more technical type majors and the arts the others are better.</p>
<p>Okay so I’m going to try and explain my complicated decision and situation. I’m a freshman at UIUC right now and I’m in the College of Business. It would be fairly easy for me to get a dual degree in finance & economics while also minoring in mathematics and French. Plus, I’m in state so I won’t have any debts even if I stay through my senior year. The problem is that I’m not too happy at UIUC for a variety of reasons. I know that I’ve only been here for one semester, but I don’t see too much upside. Plus, I will start taking upper level courses next year, which often don’t transfer. So this is why if I’m going to transfer, I have to transfer for my sophomore year. </p>
<p>I have a feeling that I’d be happier at a different school that fits me better than UIUC. This is why I’m thinking about transferring to either Michigan or Virginia; these two schools are the schools that I have the most realistic chances of getting into. I know I would have no chance of transferring to the really good private schools like the ivies, Stanford, UChicago, etc. </p>
<p>The problem with transferring is that if I wanted to obtain the same degrees and minors I could get at UIUC, I would have to stay at UVA through my senior year. And as an out-of-state student, I would go into debt at UVA. At Michigan, there is no option to get a dual degree in business and economics; it’s one or the other. And for the business route, I have to stay through my senior year, which means debt like at UVA. </p>
<p>I’ve figured that if I only get a degree in economics and a minor in French and take enough mathematics courses to keep graduate school in economics as an option I’d be able to graduate by the end of my junior year at UMICH and UVA. Graduating by the end of my junior year at either UMICH or UVA would allow me to avoid debt. </p>
<p>I’m trying to decide whether I should stick with UIUC, which is
- More convenient (traveling & obtaining my desired degrees and minors)
- Academically easier
- Less expensive </p>
<p>Or go to UMICH or UVA, which are
- More challenging
- More expensive<br>
- Possibly a better fit. </p>
<p>So that pretty much sums up why I put up the original post. Thanks for all of the advice you all have given so far.</p>
<p>I would not see any particular advantage in grad school applications from any of those good schools. If indeed you can make higher grades at UI, this might make grad school a little easier to get into assuming your GRE’s etc. are equally good. Now if you are just unhappy, well UM is not all that different a place than UI. I’d take AA over UC but not for the extra $15,000 or so a year. C’ville which I know pretty well is not as exciting a place as AA. It’s pretty small–more UC in scale. The weather is a little nicer but it’s not LA either. Students run much more to the preppie side and tend to be from upper income backgrounds.</p>
<p>Although C’ville is not an exciting place where you can have a lot of fun (don’t forget that this is a small city, definitely not like NY), it is a very calm, safe place where you can actively pursue your studies.</p>
<p>As for the weather, it is most of the times warmer than that at Illinois and Michigan. This winter break I am staying in school, and it doesn’t even feel like winter here, more like spring. If you like cold weather, Michigan will obviously better suit you.</p>
<p>FYI, C’ville was ranked one of the three best small cities to live in, according to the Men’s Journal (#1: Boulder, CO; #2: Madison, WI; #3: Charlottesville, VA).</p>
<p>Two things I really like in C’ville are the custard place up on US 29 (Kohr’s I think) and what used to be called Sarge’s for breakfast across from the Barracks shopping center. Actually I have lived in or near all three of those small cities.(In, In , near)</p>
<p>UVa, UMich, and Cal are the top 3 state schools…why are yall arguing lol</p>
<p>Spend the money and go where you want…it doesn’t take long to pay it off…you only live once!! The money seems like a big deal when you don’t have it…once you’re employed the debt will rapidly evaporate.</p>
<p>Shrek2004, I agree w/ you. In the end who really cares? To base one’s self-esteem on your school’s ranking is pretty sad. Once you graduate from college, collegiate rankings are pretty meaningless in the real world. </p>
<p>Barrons, I was drunk when I replied to your post, so I may have over-reacted w/ my intensity. Nonetheless, looking at your links & the rankings they display (which are based on research), how does a school’s research productivity help an undergrad’s education? In many ways, it can be a detriment since it takes away from teaching students. Quoting from Inside American Education, a U. Mich professor stated, “Every minute I spend in an undergraduate classroom is costing me money and prestige.” If you’re paying for an education, do you want your instructors to care more about his/her patents and research or about your learning?</p>
<p>Regarding knowledge, there are plenty of writers, scientists, philanthropists, politicians, businessman, etc. who contribute to knowledge and society in general though they may not be recognized w/ huge awards. To argue that one school contributes more than another when both are academic powerhouses is an exercise in futility.</p>
<p>Posting while drunk–always a bad idea–I only do it on the football boards where half are in the bag after the game anyway. BTW both our teams ended the season in the tank, no? (UW-UVa). Very depressing after 9-0 start. Thank god for basketball and hockey.</p>
<p>Where is a simple test. If you contacted 100 randomly selected recruiters and asked them what “UVA” and “UMICH” stand for, probably 95 would respond “University of Virginia” and University of Michigan". Probably 25 of the 100 would know what “UIUC” stands for.</p>
<p>They probably would be familiar with the university. Why would it matter if they knew the acronym for it or not?</p>
<p>Save the money.</p>
<p>Only on college boards is it UIUC… In real life it is just Illinois or the University of Illinois. If you were asking science or engineering recruiters your theory would be even more laughable.</p>
<p>Barrons, I still can’t believe UVa lost to Fresno State. </p>
<p>Harri, I don’t know your financial situation, but UVa just unveiled a new financial aid program called Access UVA. If you’re a poor student (in-state or out-of-state), all financial need would be covered w/ grants - no loans. If you’re a middle-class student, your loans would be capped at $15,000 for all 4 years at UVa even as an out-of-state student. Any amount of need above that would be covered w/ grants. So, it wouldn’t be too burdensome. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.virginia.edu/accessuva/[/url]”>http://www.virginia.edu/accessuva/</a></p>