I always feel bad for these types of people. Someone out there really believes that there’s a meaningful difference between graduating with a degree in economics vs. double majoring in economics and Spanish. So an extra semester is surely the difference between dream job vs. folding sweaters at Target.
Perhaps it is related to choosing colleges just at the edge of affordability, leaving no room for error in case an extra semester is needed (for any reason).
“Four year pledge” programs typically require such things as taking full course loads each semester, following one’s major’s course plan, not failing anything, and not needing remedial courses to start with. These are often more difficult for the type of student who goes to college but was not at the top end of the scale in high school (think of the 2.5-3.3 HS GPA students who can get admitted to many four year colleges, just not the highly selective ones commonly discussed on these forums).
For example, at least four not-very-selective CSUs have “four year pledge” programs, but their actual four year graduation rates are still quite low (under 30%).
“Oy. I know so many families up to their eyeballs in loans because when the end goal is in sight (i.e. kid is allegedly a senior) you’ll do anything to get them over the finish line.”
Do the people you know openly talk about how much student debt they or their kids have? I don’t know anyone who discusses those things with me. They only time I hear about all these people buried in debt are antidotes from CC about “these” people and on the news.
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Maybe it’s just me, but I rarely feel bad for those types of people. If you can’t check the school’s in state residency requirements before you sink a down payment into a house and tie yourself to a 15-30 yr mortgage, then I guess you had it coming.
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Well, if you read the on-going thread in the Cafe about http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1799232-why-are-people-so-opinionated-about-subjects-they-dont-know-or-understand.html#latest you’d see a mention that sometimes people “go forward” based on assumptions, or based on old info. There was a time when the difference between instate and OOS rates wasn’t that much, and schools got lots of state aid, so the rules back then were more relaxes. Now, with budget cuts and rising OOS rates, the loopholes have been shut-down so that OOS students pretty much remain OOS with few exceptions.
I come from a big family and I’ve got a pretty good idea (not because I asked) which cousins, siblings, nieces, nephews are overloaded with student loans right now. I am on the board of a community non-profit which offers interest free short term loans on a mostly honor system (you need to apply with a short application but it’s not like a commercial bank) and I am stunned by the number of people living in solid zip codes who need $500 for the plane fare to get their kid back to college for senior year or for the security deposit on the kids apartment for the first year of grad school. And in the short application they list their overall indebtedness (i.e. why someone who owns a home and has a good job can’t just put the short term expenses on a credit card) and yes- they are completely maxed out on their credit covering living expenses AND a massive amount of debt for… dare I say it… a second tier school which they probably couldn’t afford in the first place. And sure- education is important and I’m sympathetic to wanting to finance your kids dreams, but your son is never going to be able to pay back these loans on a physical therapists salary. Nope. And your daughter’s peak earnings even from the “top” OT program in the country (the parents always put that on the application- the top program) are not going to cover her payments.
OT, PT, special ed, guidance counselor, school psychologist- these professions are important, don’t get me wrong. But I haven’t figured out what it is about the helping professions that attract people who are not good with money (compound interest isn’t too tough to figure out) or why it often takes kids SO LONG to figure out that even though they started college majoring in communications, the real passion is counseling, i.e. complete restart. Or why a kid interested in business can’t figure out that a Master’s in Human Resources on top of the BS in Business from average college nobody has ever heard of isn’t going to become the golden ticket.
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they are completely maxed out on their credit covering living expenses AND a massive amount of debt for… dare I say it… a second tier school which they probably couldn’t afford in the first place.
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Yes!
I am STUNNED by the number of people who are taking on big loans to send their kids to top-tiers, mid-tiers or even completely unranked schools - just because the family has a long-pattern of giving their kids whatever they want.
No school, not even a HYPS type of school, is worth big debt.
I have to imagine some of this depends on what state you live in and what the state schools’ rep is. In NJ – some many top NJ high schoolers see Rutgers as a death sentence; in their mind it’s where the “dumb” or “lazy” kids in their high school go, and they deserve to go somewhere better. Some families say – suck it up, you’ll get a fine education. While many many others – who likely have never said no to their kids for anything – will scrape together one loan after the next to send their kid to a mid tier or completely unranked school someplace else that is supposedly SO much better than Rutgers.
I don’t see this happening as much across the river in Pa. though. There is a significant amount of Penn State pride throughout the state, and I don’t see as many families ready to take on massive debt just to avoid Penn State – even though I imagine that Rutgers and Penn State aren’t all that different in quality, though I guess they have different strengths.
Well, what you don’t include in your statement, is that for the HYPS schools, if you had to take out those type of sizable debts, you would probably have some form of of direct grant from the school. Aid is given all the way up to family income approaching 200k, so I’m not sure those schools are the best examples…
“I am STUNNED by the number of people who are taking on big loans to send their kids to top-tiers, mid-tiers or even completely unranked schools - just because the family has a long-pattern of giving their kids whatever they want.”
Are you talking about people you know personally? Do they tell you how much debt they have?
Not sure if that was directed to me but – yes – ivy aid is pretty amazing. I’m pretty sure your average kid does not have the option of getting admitted to an ivy so it’s a moot point for 90+% of people out there.
I’m talking about your regular 3.7/4.0 GPA kids who will pooh pooh Rutgers only to go to a school that provides pretty much the same education but they’ll go there with massive debt. Maybe it’s only a NJ thing, but I’ve seen it many times. I wonder if it’s different in states that have multiple big state schools – so if you dislike one, there are other large options as well.
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“I see nobody taking out huge loans to go to Williams.”
Hmm, wasn’t the big story last year about the kid from Chicago whose parents borrowed about $50k per year for the son to go to Williams? It was a black family, upper middle class with the father making quite a bit so didn’t qualify for much or any need based aid, so they borrowed. All of it.
I think it happens a lot more than people think. My cousin went to Williams many years ago, right after the stock market took a dive (1989?) and although her parents had saved for college, they didn’t have it at the time and borrowed a lot. There have just been articles about Scott Walker and Martin O’Malley, governs, borrowing $100-$350k for their kids to go to colleges. Middle class. Borrowing.
^^^
Yes, that was Williams. And W gives great aid, but the dad’s income was about $175k and I don’t think he could pay anything (something about also supporing a DD single mom or something).
Seriously, there are people with strong income who get no aid at those top schools. Maybe because they’re good savers, investers, or whatever, but to simply have an income of $200k or below is not some assurance that you’ll get great aid.
My sister had 2 children at top “great aid” schools for 3 years simultaneously and never qualified for a penny of aid.
Rutgers’ ranking and reputation really took a hit when they combined the admission stats of the different colleges. Back in the 80s they reported the colleges separately and Rutgers College, the oldest and most prestigious college, had an admission rate of 16%, IIRC, but Livingston College had an acceptance rate of 74%. Now that the colleges no longer report separately the overall acceptance rate is >50%.
I always thought that Cornell should report separate admission stats for the College of Arts & Sciences, which is the only college that is part of the Ivy League. The other colleges are land grant and have much higher admission stats. The 16% acceptance rate is not truly reflective of the actual acceptance rate at the C of A&S.
But are they taking on large amounts of debt to send the kid to Penn State, which is relatively expensive for an in-state public school, and does not give good financial aid for an in-state public school? (Pennsylvania has a relatively high level of average student debt for public school students compared to other states – the in-state high cost and poor financial aid is not limited to Penn State.)
It does seem that NJ residents posting here are among the most disdainful of their in-state public schools compared to those from other states, although there is considerable disdain for in-state public schools in some other states (particularly the northeast).
I think this is a lot of it. I’m surprised at how many people who were able to secure sizable merit awards for their students will then agonize over the cost of every textbook or extra fee. If you’re cutting it that close, it’s still too expensive for your family IMHO.
Penn State is CRAZY expensive in state, at $32,000 a year for the main campus. Heck, even the PASSHE schools cost about $19,000 if your student resides on campus. And for a kid who wants to study engineering, for instance, you have very few inexpensive public options in PA.
I think a lot of PA families take on sizable debt precisely SO their kids can attend Penn State. I know my next-door neighbor told me she took out PLUS loans for all FOUR of her Penn State kiddos.
WA became the first and only state to cut in-state tuition this year. Originally a Republican state representative proposed we cut in-state tuition to the UW by 25% over the next 2 years, eventually taking it to $7,500 per year by 2017. The Democrats put up a fight, they wanted the tuition to stay the same and provide more aid to low income students aka illegal immigrants. Eventually they settled on 15% reduction over 2 years. Next year’s tuition will be at $10,203. I hope the university does not respond by further restricting in-state enrollment and giving away more spots to higher paying international and OOS students, as they have been doing the past 5 years. We need a new state legislature that restricts OOS enrollment to no more than 10% and International to no more than 5% of student body. As of now 16% of undergrads are OOS, plus another 18% internationals, mostly from China. Way too high.
I like the story of this couple, saving 71% of their income and planning to retire by 33.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurengensler/2015/08/04/frugalwoods-early-retirement/
Their blog is great: http://www.frugalwoods.com/
I will make sure my children read their college guide:
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/07/15/our-guide-to-a-very-frugal-yet-still-awesome-college-experience/
There are plenty of low income people who are not illegal immigrants.
Sure, not everyone can, but still a large portion. It’s something to consider doing if it’s possible for you.