How good is the financial aid at Duke?

Pea · June 11, 2010, 2:34pm

I’ve got to agree with plumazul here and I didn’t detect any bitterness in his post, only someone who wanted to go to Duke but in the end couldn’t afford it. This is a very tough income bracket for receiving much need-based assistance anywhere outside of HYPS.

Finances come into play in the decision about where to go to college. I think the OP should apply to Duke but then be prepared for the possibility of getting in but not getting enough financial aid to attend. The OP shouldn’t apply ED anywhere and should cast a wide net.

PPham27 · June 11, 2010, 9:34pm

I’m going to have to agree with eatsalot here. My family is on a single parent income making around $95k/year, and we are paying for Duke without any hardship. EFC is a bit less than $20k, so Duke gives us nearly $30k in grants, and I take out $5k in loans per year (which my family could pay, but they are government subsidized and incur no interest, so we might as well keep the money and invest it).

Nearly all the stories that I’ve heard about people not being able to afford Duke are not due to poor financial aid or income; rather, it is a function of poor saving by the family. The truth is many American families do not save very much (Exhibit A - the current financial crisis). It surprises me that many families have watched their child grow up for 18 years and do not have a dime saved up for their child’s education (I suppose that it’s also possible that they are convinced that their super smart/athletic child will get a full ride as well).

Duke’s financial aid formula takes into account income far more than they do savings and investments. I really believe that if the parents have done their part and lived within their means, Duke is affordable to anyone. Perhaps, I’m expecting too much of the parents, and maybe it’s the Asian part of me, but I am of the belief that parents are responsible for investing in their child’s education; my parents opened up my college fund when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade despite not even having a six figure income. It doesn’t even require that much sacrifice, honestly. We still took trips to Disney World.

p_hp_fan · June 12, 2010, 2:09pm

I agree with PPham and eatsalot. plumazul, the fact is, while some people (such as yourself) find Duke’s financial aid not good enough, some people do. You shouldn’t tell someone to “forget Duke” without knowing their situation more than you do. You’re completely right to say that other places, especially “upper Ivies” will probably have better aid, but you don’t know what Duke will do. OP, don’t “forget Duke” yet. Just apply and see what happens and talk it out with our family.

Pea · June 12, 2010, 3:05pm

That’s kind of the point isn’t it? The aid might be good enough but it might not be also. The OP should be prepared for the possibility that it won’t be. The people responding saying that Duke’s aid is generous are same people who are at Duke, so clearly Duke’s financial aid was generous for them. There are people who didn’t matriculate to Duke because their financial aid packages weren’t enough and there are people there whose parents are really stretching themselves to make it happen.

plumazul · June 12, 2010, 4:31pm

^ Very well said Pea. If I may add to your post …

"and there are people there whose parents are really stretching themselves to make it happen. "

and all the while their child is blissfully oblivious to the financial pain …

SBR · June 12, 2010, 5:53pm

^^ Not in every case. In my culture, such blissful ignorance can be considered a mark of not only poor upbringing but also of serious disrespect for one’s parents and family.

nks123 · June 13, 2010, 5:25pm

Thanks for the advice, I probably won’t apply ED to any colleges, it is not worth the risk

eatsalot · June 13, 2010, 9:53pm

If you can’t afford a school you get into ED, you can pull out.

SBR · June 13, 2010, 10:41pm

But that definition of “affordability” is completely subjective and determined on a case-by-case basis by the school itself. Essentially, an ED-er is disadvantaged going into an appeals process of this kind by Duke’s argument that it is committed to meeting 100% of the applicant’s “demonstrated need.” Therefore, the burden is on the applicant to prove that there is an extenuating circumstance that is not recognized as legitimate enough by Duke for an FA adjustment but one which is still valid enough (in the school’s opinion) to genuinely preclude the student’s family from being able to pay their family contribution and thus absolving the student of his/her prior commitment to attend.

This IMHO is really really murky and probably the reason that so few people actually manage to pull out.

BallerDuke14 · June 13, 2010, 11:54pm

Yeah, I’ll play the DA here and say that you can still apply ED even if your family requires substantial FA. I actually was in the same situation as you and wasn’t sure if I wanted to apply ED and then have that backfire on me by screwing over my family. However, when the Duke admissions lady for my region came to visit my school, I explained to her my situation, why exactly I wanted to apply ED and wanted to go to duke so badly and she said that cost shouldn’t stop a person from going to a school (extremely idealistic, I know) and she gave me the contact information to a couple of duke’s financial aid counselors. So I talked to them, did my research and after a while, we were able to find a ballpark estimate to how much my parents would actually pay, and surprisingly, that number was really close to my actual FA that I received. The point I’m trying to make is that if you do your research and you and your family can get into contact with Duke’s Financial Aid and find a general idea as to how much they would be paying, then you might end up finding yourself interested in applying ED. Sorry for posting such a long reply, but hopefully my personal anecdote can help you make this tough decision, because I was in the same boat as you a year ago and I know how tough this decision can be.

nks123 · June 14, 2010, 12:49am

Interesting idea, I might try that

objobs · June 14, 2010, 6:30pm

So you’re telling a prospective student to enter a binding contract without good faith. Do your fellow Duke students and alumni/ae subscribe to such situational “ethics?”

But all things being equal:

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064959298-post48.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064959298-post48.html</a>

Oh, by the way, it’s silly of you (in the cited post) to compare the yields of Duke vs. Chicago/Caltech. Duke uses Early Decision (ED) as a crutch; Chicago and Caltech don’t. So even though Chicago was your first choice, assuming you applied there Early Action (EA), you were not obligated to go there. You had the opportunity to turn down Chicago because it only offered you “crumbs.” If the OP were to apply ED to Duke, s/he’d have no such opportunity. But some Duke people (to your credit, not you) are encouraging the OP to apply ED to Duke and take his or her chances. If you were to be self-righteously “appalled” at something in this thread, maybe this should be it.

Pea · June 14, 2010, 6:43pm

It isn’t situational ethics. Applicants who need financial aid are allowed to apply early decision. If their financial aid package isn’t sufficient they are allowed to opt out. The early decision contract is binding except in this circumstance.

I thought BD14’s post was good. The financial aid formulas are more transparent for some schools than for others. If you can determine how much aid Duke is likely to give you and it is enough and Duke is your first choice then I think you could make a case for applying early decision.

Remember, you might be forgoing a really good financial aid package at another school. While Duke’s package is enough, there might have been a package from another school that would have been much better and made sending you to college much easier on the family finances.

objobs · June 14, 2010, 6:51pm

The situational “ethics” to which I refer does not so much have to do with the ED binding contract itself, but the self-serving agenda of Duke posters who are irresponsibly encouraging the OP to apply ED to Duke when this is clearly not in the OP’s interest. As you clearly pointed out, by applying ED, the OP is likely to be “forgoing a really good financial aid package at another school.”

Easier said than done. The burden of proof lies on the admitted student to show that his or her financial need wasn’t “met.” In any event, the OP would have very little leverage in the bargaining process. She’d be at the mercy of the Duke financial aid office.

The key word is “likely.”

SBR · June 14, 2010, 7:14pm

Objobs: allow me to clarify a few things

1) Eatsalot is merely stating that pulling out is an option for ED in some (extraordinary) circumstances, he’s not advocating for that.

Also, while I’m not a lawyer, I’m not sure that the situation you outlined necessarily qualifies as “entering a binding contract without good faith.” If I understand the concept correctly, good faith requires that you enter a contract with honest intention and make a sincere effort to meet your contractual obligations regardless of any (possibly unfortunate) results. Thus, as long as your intentions are to attend Duke when you applied for ED, the “good faith” argument shouldn’t apply if your original intentions were honest.

If, however, one is not 100% committed to attending Duke from the outset, then applying ED would be entering a contract without good faith.

2) While Duke’s FA is not as great as some Ivies, it’s not exactly something to sniff at. It’s important to note the difference in endowment size between Duke and HYPSM and for schools such as Rice, it’s also important to consider that Rice has almost half as many students with comparable endowment to Duke. I believe that however Duke compares with other institutions, the administrators are doing the best they can with the resources that they have at their disposal, however they choose to prioritize or allocate them.

Edit: didn’t see replies

While I don’t condone people applying ED without giving due consideration to the (rather) important financial aspects and ramifications, it’s not exactly unethical for Duke students to encourage others to apply for ED. Just like a company isn’t obligated to tell you deficiencies in their product design (unless it’s a safety issue) or what they stand to gain from your purchase (profit), Duke students on CC do not have the obligation to be impartial in their advice. The forum is a way to promote the school after all. It would be nice but not ethically obligatory to explore both pro’s and con’s. Furthermore, it wouldn’t be irresponsible for Duke students to advocate for ED because Duke students do not bear responsibility in any case (see below) for any decision by their advisee.

In the end, it’s the OP’s decision and his/her responsibility to consider all the consequences before signing on the dotted line. If he/she is incapable of making an informed decision or seeking out appropriate information sources (from all perspectives), then either the guardians can do so or the decision should be delayed or avoided.

But I do agree that it is polite and befitting of Duke students to give qualify their advice where necessary. And I do agree that the ED appeals process is unfairly biased against an applicant (see my post from page 2).

objobs · June 14, 2010, 7:45pm

Isn’t it “impolite” and “unbefitting” of you to lie?

You could say this about virtually any school. And define “best.”

Whether or not they are under any obligation to act ethically does not change the fact that they are not acting ethically. Like I said, “situational ethics.”

SBR · June 14, 2010, 7:52pm

1) best: I have no clue what specifically best means in this case, but rather I have faith that they are acting in a rational manner in the best interest of the institution and its students, especially those under their care.

2) I believe that obligation to act ethically is paramount to the judgment of whether or not someone is acting ethically, especially in the case of “situational” ethics. I believe that the obligation itself instantiates the ethical standards by which the judgment is made. Therefore, if the obligation is absent, so is the standard, rendering any judgment according to that standard irrelevant.

But this is all philosophical.

objobs · June 14, 2010, 8:02pm

FIXED.

Not necessarily. I (try to) act ethically because I want to, not because I need or have to. But maybe we have different standards.

objobs · June 14, 2010, 8:23pm

Excuse me. I cited the wrong quote in post #36.

This is the verbal exchange that I meant to quote:

This sounds a lot like “advocacy” to me (if you take into account the context of the situation). S/he is not merely making a statement, but is responding directly to the OP and suggesting that the OP bears the risk of applying ED BECAUSE pulling out is an “option.” So s/he is saying that the OP should enter a binding agreement without the full intention of staying put. That is not “good faith.” It is also misleading to not qualify the statement re: “pulling out,” since this can happen only in the most “extraordinary” of circumstances. Again, the burden of proof lies (heavily) on the applicant.

SBR · June 14, 2010, 9:30pm

Objobs:

1) don’t put words in my mouth.

In this case, it is unavoidable that the administration act in the best interest of the institution because they are employed by the institution. Furthermore, to make a clear distinction between the students and the institution is difficult since the institution comprises the student. Thus it could be argued that by fulfilling their obligation to act in the best interests of the institution, they are also benefiting its students.

Also, I don’t believe this point and this quote

is very relevant to the discussion. We aren’t discussing in whose interest Duke’s FA is acting but rather whether it is comparable to others. I was simply trying to point out that, as you said, Duke’s FA is no different from the FA of other schools when mitigating circumstances and its contexts are taken into consideration. So why all the hate?

2) Acting ethically is a very nebulous and subjective concept with each person’s ethical standards being different. Should one not be conventionally obligated to act ethically in a situation, then it is logical that there’s no conventionally established standard of ethics that is agreed upon by the majority in that situation. Therefore, it is not possible to accuse that person of acting “unethically” and expect it to be meaningful to others.

3) Your argument of good faith in this case is not exactly sound. The OP can fully enter a contract on good faith while preserving the option of exercising the escape clause as long as his intentions when applying is to make the maximum honest effort to attend. Whether or not he knows that such an option exists in the first place is irrelevant in this case. I’m sure that he will not enter a such contract with the express intention to break it or to not do his best to fulfill his obligations.

4) Also, what I meant was that eatsalot is not advocating for the OP to exercise the option of pulling out. If he did, he then would be advocating the OP entering into a contractual obligation in bad faith. Instead, eatsalot is making the OP aware that such an option exists. What eatsalot is doing, however, in terms of advocacy is advocating that the OP apply ED. There’s a subtle difference.

How good is the financial aid at Duke?

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