How good is the financial aid at Duke?

[objobs]

<p>

@SBR

Thus it could be argued that by fulfilling their obligation to act in the best interests of the institution, they are also benefiting its students.

</p>

<p>Except in the innumerable instances in which the best “interests” of the institution conflict (or, at least, are not compatible) with those of the students. </p>

<p>

@SBR

I was simply trying to point out that, as you said, Duke’s FA is no different from the FA of other schools when mitigating circumstances and its contexts are taken into consideration.

</p>

<p>Now you’re putting words in MY mouth. I said that all institutions could be said to be doing their “best.” That doesn’t imply that I believe that Duke’s “best” is as good as, say, the “best” of some of its peer institutions such as the non-HYP Ivies. Contrariwise, my point is that Duke’s FA is fundamentally different than the FA of the Ivies. The former prioritizes merit and athletic scholarships (for the privileged few) over need-based aid (for the rest); the latter do not even offer “talent” based scholarships. </p>

<p>So you have an all-too-common situation in which a middle-class (admitted) student such as plumazul essentially loses his or her spot at Duke (due to lack of affordability) to, say, a football recruit with a three-digit SAT score who (undeservedly) gets a full ride. (And if Duke’s recent football record is any indication, the football player probably isn’t even that athletically talented to remotely compensate for his lack of academic talent.) But when plumazul calls into question this injustice, the Duke students and alumni/ae pile on and accuse him or her of being “bitter” and “preposterous.” Talk about adding insult to injury. </p>

<p>Now if Duke were in the position of, say, Rice to offer “talent” based scholarships without sacrificing need-based aid, then the issue of prioritization would be moot. As you noted, Duke does not have the per capita endowment of Rice so it chooses to prioritize its merit and athletic scholarship recipients over its other students. But this doesn’t have to be the case. For example, Brown has a lower per capita endowment than Duke. Because Brown (due to its Ivy affiliation) does not privilege some of its students over others, it can provide superior FA than Duke. I guess I am not that impressed by Duke’s “mitigating circumstances” (aka “excuses”). If Duke students and alumni/ae think it’s unfair to compare Duke to the Ivies with respect to FA, then they should not try to compare their school to the Ivies in any other respect either. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.</p>

[bluedog]

<p>

Because Brown (due to its Ivy affiliation) does not privilege some of its students over others

</p>

<p>Brown is the worst Ivy example possible. It just became need-blind for US freshmen applicants like five years ago; talk about being behind the curve. My friend who transferred there a few years ago wasn’t even eligible to get ANY financial aid because he was a transfer student (after one year somewhere else). Or perhaps he was eligible to apply, but was afraid it’d hurt his chances, I’m not sure. Talk about “privleg[ing] some of its students over others.” At least Duke is need-blind and full-need for all its US students. Apparently, Brown now has “limited funds” for transfers which is better than no funds I suppose. It’s still considered in the application and is seen as a negative, though. So those applying are at a huge disadvantage. [Brown</a> Admission: Transfer Students](<a href=“Undergraduate Admission | Brown University”>Undergraduate Admission | Brown University)</p>

<p>

Financial aid for transfer applicants is limited. In order for an applicant to be considered for available funds, each candidate for financial aid must check “yes” to the Financial Aid question on Form 1

</p>

<p>

Transfer students are admitted to Brown under a need-aware Admission policy

<a href=“https://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=56[/url]”>https://financialaid.brown.edu/Cmx_Content.aspx?cpId=56&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Here’s the part that really hurts though: </p>

<p>

Students who do not apply for financial assistance with their initial admission application will not be considered for University Scholarship at any point during their undergraduate years at Brown, regardless of any changes in their family’s financial situation.

</p>

<p>So, Brown won’t help you out if all of a sudden your parents lose their jobs, you lose your house, etc? Ouch. Duke financial aid policies historically have been much more generous than Brown’s. By the way, I know many people who chose Duke over UPenn because of more aid. Definitely HYP are way more generous, though, but they’re more generous than practically everybody…</p>

[objobs]

<p>

@SBR

Acting ethically is a very nebulous and subjective concept

</p>

<p>What’s so “nebulous” about it? Either you act ethically or you don’t. Either you act ethically because you want to or because you have to.</p>

<p>

@SBR

Should one not be conventionally obligated to act ethically in a situation, then it is logical that there’s no conventionally established standard of ethics that is agreed upon by the majority in that situation.

</p>

<p>I disagree. You can (want to) act ethically even if you’re under no obligation to do so. Altruism is a perfect example. Does there exist a society or culture that does not “conventionally” agree that altruism is good (from an ethical point of view)? </p>

<p>

@SBR

Therefore, it is not possible to accuse that person of acting “unethically” and expect it to be meaningful to others.

</p>

<p>Sure it is. We may disagree about what these ethical obligations (or standards) are. But we assume they exist because none of us believe anything goes. No (wo)man is an island, morally speaking.</p>

<p>

@SBR

Your argument of good faith in this case is not exactly sound. The OP can fully enter a contract on good faith while preserving the option of exercising the escape clause as long as his intentions when applying is to make the maximum honest effort to attend.

</p>

<p>Do these statements sound as if the OP truly believes s/he has a reasonable shot at getting an affordable FA package from Duke? To me, it sounds as if s/he’s already bailing on the possible ED commitment:</p>

<p>

@nks123

I probably won’t apply ED to any colleges, it is not worth the risk

</p>

<p>

@nks123

There aren’t many options then if you decide to go ED…

</p>

<p>

@nks123

Sigh, the Middle Class is always left in the dust

</p>

<p>

@SBR

Also, what I meant was that eatsalot is not advocating for the OP to exercise the option of pulling out. If he did, he then would be advocating the OP entering into a contractual obligation in bad faith. Instead, eatsalot is making the OP aware that such an option exists. What eatsalot is doing, however, in terms of advocacy is advocating that the OP apply ED. There’s a subtle difference.

</p>

<p>S/he’s doing both.</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@objobs

Now if Duke were in the position of, say, Rice to offer “talent” based scholarships without sacrificing need-based aid, then the issue of prioritization would be moot. As you noted, Duke does not have the per capita endowment of Rice so it chooses to prioritize its merit and athletic scholarship recipients over its other students. But this doesn’t have to be the case. For example, Brown has a lower per capita endowment than Duke. Because Brown (due to its Ivy affiliation) does not privilege some of its students over others, it can provide superior FA than Duke.

Unfortunately, you don’t quite understand how merit scholarships at Duke work.</p>

<p>The merit scholarships at Duke are all funded by outside bodies. The AB Duke scholarship, for example, is funded by the Angier B. Duke Memorial, Inc. fund, which was established before west campus was even built. Duke usually picks the students for these scholars (though outside committees sometimes do, as with the Robertson), but it does not fund them. In other words, alumni and donors are giving Duke money for scholarships, and Duke chooses to use that money. It could, of course, refuse that money, but that would simply result in no merit scholarships and no better financial aid.</p>

[SBR]

<p>Objobs:</p>

<p>1) My bad, my intent is to convey that both of us agree that the FA of Duke and other schools share a philosophy in that they try to do what they think is best for their respective institutions regardless of implementation. </p>

<p>I’m not going to argue about what the best interests of Duke or any other institution is because that is pointless and out of my control. But I respect the university’s wishes to attract talented students and athletes in an attempt to enrich the student experience (judging from the basketball programs of the Ivies, I’d say they were somewhat successful). </p>

<p>As for plumazul, I have no idea what’s going on in that particular case, but I’d like to point out that the FA system as well as these full ride scholarships aren’t exactly hush hush. If you don’t like it, then feel free to not apply. Like you said, there are plenty of peer as well as better institutions that have much better FA.</p>

<p>The plain truth is that:</p>

<p>1) Duke is expensive</p>

<p>2) Duke takes care of poor families</p>

<p>3) Rich families don’t need aid</p>

<p>4) Middle class (as it often is) is many times left in the dust</p>

<p>That’s what it is, if you can’t stomach it, then avoid it. But as much as it pains me to say (I’m middle class too), Duke’s FA implementation will not change in the future no matter how much anyone questions it on CC.</p>

<p>As for Brown, I’ll point out that despite a much better FA policy and similar size of student body, Duke spent $86million last year on need-based FA while Brown spent around $70million. That says something about Brown’s student body I think…</p>

<p>Sources:
[Duke</a> Reaches $300 M Financial Aid Goal - Wake County - MyNC.com](<a href=“mync.com is coming soon”>http://wake.mync.com/site/wake/news/story/13345/duke-reaches-300-m-financial-aid-goal)
<a href=“http://www.boldly.brown.edu/lib/FinancialAidCaseStatement.pdf[/url]”>http://www.boldly.brown.edu/lib/FinancialAidCaseStatement.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As for having our cake and eating it that doesn’t even make sense. FA has nothing to do with quality of education, student life, weather, campus atmosphere, etc. Why isn’t appropriate to compare them separately? Every school has its pros and cons. If I say that Duke’s BME is better than Brown BME does the fact that Brown’s FA policy is better somehow negate the first statement?</p>

<p>Edit: slow to see replies</p>

<p>1) Acting ethically is a nebulous concept because it’s very subjective. A thief stealing a piece of bread out of desperation to feed his family is acting ethically in my eyes but can be viewed as acting unethically in the eyes of the baker whose livelihood is at stake. </p>

<p>2) I’m not arguing about wanting to act ethically, but merely saying that without a standard, it is impossible to judge. For all you know the person is following his ethical code in this instance. Because there’s no ethical obligation, a conventional standard cannot be established by which one is judged. You are presuming that everyone’s idea of “acting ethically” is the same. </p>

<p>3) Yes, we can assume ethics exists. But to make a judgment of someone acting unethically and for it to mean something to your audience means that your audience necessarily have to share your ethical standards. </p>

<p>4) I’m not saying that the OP will definitely enter a contract in good faith in this instance. I’m saying that him/her knowing there’s an escape clause and him/her applying ED in good faith is not mutually exclusive. He still has the choice to apply ED with the honest intention of attending (however unlikely you may think that is). </p>

<p>5) eatsalot is not doing both. He/she is assuming that the if the OP applies ED, he will have made an informed decision that possibly took into account his advice but also considers all aspects and consequences. Adding a few qualifications would certain be a more appropriate way of doing it though.</p>

[objobs]

<p>

@bluedog

Brown is the worst Ivy example possible. It just became need-blind for US freshmen applicants like five years ago; talk about being behind the curve.

</p>

<p>I thought we were talking about the current FA situation, not that from more than 5 years ago.</p>

<p>

@bluedog

My friend who transferred there a few years ago wasn’t even eligible to get ANY financial aid because he was a transfer student (after one year somewhere else). Talk about “privleg[ing] some of its students over others.” At least Duke is need-blind and full-need for all its US students. Apparently, Brown changed their policy now for transfers such that there are “limited funds” which is better than no funds I suppose. But it’s still considered in the application and is seen as a negative. So those applying are at a huge disadvantage.

</p>

<p>Like I said, Brown has a lower per capita endowment than Duke. So it’s possible that they are not as generous with FA for its tranfers as Duke. But it’s one thing for Brown to prioritize the many (incoming frosh) over the few (transfers) than for Duke to privilege the few (merit and athletic scholarship recipients) over the many (regular Duke students like yours truly). Brown has a frosh retention rate of 97%, which means they probably accept very few transfers.</p>

<p>

@bluedog

Quote:
Students who do not apply for financial assistance with their initial admission application will not be considered for University Scholarship at any point during their undergraduate years at Brown, regardless of any changes in their family’s financial situation. </p>

<p>So, Brown won’t help you out if all of a sudden your parents lose their jobs

</p>

<p>Only if they “do not apply for financial assistance with their initial admission application.” Brown has a six-year graduation rate of 94% (to Duke’s 95%) so I doubt that many Brown students are forced to drop out due to (changing) finances. </p>

<p>

@bluedog

Definitely HYP are way more generous

</p>

<p>Not just HYP.</p>

[objobs]

<p>

@warblersrule86

Quote:
Originally Posted by objobs
Now if Duke were in the position of, say, Rice to offer “talent” based scholarships without sacrificing need-based aid, then the issue of prioritization would be moot. As you noted, Duke does not have the per capita endowment of Rice so it chooses to prioritize its merit and athletic scholarship recipients over its other students. But this doesn’t have to be the case. For example, Brown has a lower per capita endowment than Duke. Because Brown (due to its Ivy affiliation) does not privilege some of its students over others, it can provide superior FA than Duke. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, you don’t quite understand how merit scholarships at Duke work.</p>

<p>The merit scholarships at Duke are all funded by outside bodies. The AB Duke scholarship, for example, is funded by the Angier B. Duke Memorial, Inc. fund, which was established before west campus was even built. Duke usually picks the students for these scholars (though outside committees sometimes do, as with the Robertson), but it does not fund them. In other words, alumni and donors are giving Duke money for scholarships, and Duke chooses to use that money.

</p>

<p>Then that means the Duke alumni/ae and donors do not have their priorities straight either.</p>

[objobs]

<p>

@SBR

I’d like to point out that the FA system [isn’t] exactly hush hush.

</p>

<p>According to plumazul and some other Duke admitted students, it’s isn’t exactly out in the open either: </p>

<p>

@plumazul

Duke has a problem with socioeconomic diversity, THAT’S a fact. Duke has admitted it, and they have expressed a desire to do something about it. That’s good, I wish them luck and hope that in the next decade they make progress towards that goal. </p>

<p>For the apologist in this thread, … your argument should be NOT be with people posting simple facts … if you don’t believe these facts, go argue with the Duke administration …
Maybe you can convince them that everything is fine the way it is, … as I’ve said before, it’s a private school, they can run it anyway they want, however, they DO need to fix certain wording on their website and in their literature …

</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064882735-post52.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064882735-post52.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

@SBR

As for Brown, I’ll point out that despite a much better FA policy and similar size of student body, Duke spent $86million last year on need-based FA while Brown spent around $70million.

</p>

<p>Duke has a $4.4B endowment; Brown’s is only $2B. So percentage-wise, Brown is spending about twice as much of its endowment on FA as Duke. Which school do you think demonstrates a higher commitment to affordability and socioeconomic diversity?</p>

[SBR]

<p>objobs: The number of full ride scholarships awarded by Duke is pretty clear for those that take the time to browse the FA website. It’s under Other Sources under the Undergraduate Aid tab (finaid.duke.edu). </p>

<p>The annual Duke FA budget is also available if you just google it (see my last post). It’s $86 million. If you want a rough estimate of the amount of aid on average, take that number and divide by 3900 (assuming 60% of undergrads get aid). That works out to be about $22000 per student per year on average (again very crude estimate). Compare that with a cost of attendance north of $55000, it’s pretty easy to get a rough idea of what the FA picture is like. </p>

<p>Of course, it’s not going to be printed on a glossy brochure or on the homepage of duke.edu but it’s relatively accessible for anyone who cares to do a little bit of research. Considering how important choosing colleges and applying is, I think that little bit of research is not too much to ask for when I say that applicants need to make an effort to be informed.</p>

<p>Edit: let’s not blindly make judgments on the priorities of Duke students/alumni. Up to now this discussion has been pretty civil and rational but let’s not intentionally wander into subjective opinions that will surely offend (ie let’s not ■■■■■).</p>

[objobs]

<p>

@SBR

1. Acting ethically is a nebulous concept because it’s very subjective. A thief stealing a piece of bread out of desperation to feed his family is acting ethically in my eyes but can be viewed as acting unethically in the eyes of the baker whose livelihood is at stake.

</p>

<p>What we’re talking about isn’t all that “nebulous.”</p>

<p>

@SBR

2. I’m not arguing about wanting to act ethically, but merely saying that without a standard, it is impossible to judge. For all you know the person is following his ethical code in this instance. Because there’s no ethical obligation, a conventional standard cannot be established by which one is judged. You are presuming that everyone’s idea of “acting ethically” is the same.

</p>

<p>No. I am presuming that none of us believes that anything goes. Our ethical standards do not have to be co-extensive for us to have meaningful discussion about them. </p>

<p>

@SBR

3. Yes, we can assume ethics exists. But to make a judgment of someone acting unethically and for it to mean something to your audience means that your audience necessarily have to share your ethical standards.

</p>

<p>People judge the ethics (or lack thereof) of others all the time. So presumably, rational human beings do indeed “share” enough ethical standards for such judgment to take place. Are you suggesting that you’re never judged anyone else from a moral point of view?</p>

<p>

@SBR

4. I’m not saying that the OP will definitely enter a contract in good faith in this instance. I’m saying that him/her knowing there’s an escape clause and him/her applying ED in good faith is not mutually exclusive. He still has the choice to apply ED with the honest intention of attending (however unlikely you may think that is).

</p>

<p>Of course, we do not know DEFINITELY what the OP will do. But everything s/he’s said suggests that s/he is reluctant to make a commitment that would require maximum good faith. </p>

<p>

@SBR

5. eatsalot is not doing both. He/she is assuming that the if the OP applies ED, he will have made an informed decision that possibly took into account his advice but also considers all aspects and consequences.

</p>

<p>I have a less generous interpretation.</p>

<p>

@SBR

Adding a few qualifications would certain be a more appropriate way of doing it though.

</p>

<p>That’s the problem. The threads that I’ve read in the Duke sub-forum tend to consist of mainly over-the-top generalizations.</p>

[SBR]

<p>objobs:</p>

<p>1) I think it’s very nebulous</p>

<p>2) I’m not suggesting that ethical judgments can’t be made or that people do not share ethical values. We aren’t arguing about whether it’s OK to kill people here. </p>

<p>I’m saying that in this case, the “situational ethics” isn’t as cut and dry as you claim. I don’t think it’s anymore ethically reprehensible for posters on this forum to offer up their opinions and knowledge than I think that everything said on this forum should be taken as fact. Everyone needs to take things on this forum with a grain of salt because of the varying “ethical concerns” of the posters here. </p>

<p>3) yes, the OP suggests that he/she cannot make a good faith effort, however, that does not make it unethical to make the information known to the OP or other readers. </p>

<p>4) Your interpretation is yours. For all I know you can think all Duke students are cannibals. </p>

<p>5) You aren’t reading a doctoral thesis on CC. It should be common sense that things said on here should be taken with a spoonful of salt. Anyone who does not have the judgment to recognize and apply that should not be on CC. Also, it’s not really your job to police CC or to impose your standards of PC (or to question the ethics of Duke students).</p>

[objobs]

<p>Oh, in post #46, when I said “yours truly,” I really meant you, not me. Excuse the mistake. </p>

<p>In the interests of disclosure, I do not attend Duke, if that wasn’t already patently obvious.</p>

[plumazul]

<p>@SBR, On a point of personal privilege, I will re-enter the discussion, ;)</p>

<p>“As for plumazul, I have no idea what’s going on in that particular case, but I’d like to point out that the FA system as well as these full ride scholarships aren’t exactly hush hush. If you don’t like it, then feel free to not apply. Like you said, there are plenty of peer as well as better institutions that have much better FA.”</p>

<p>?? I realize that when you posted this it WAS very late, but … what are you trying to say? I did EXTENSIVE research and applied to ten schools that I thought represented the full spectrum of possibilities. I was certainly not content to just read websites, I made trips, talked to representatives from both my academic areas of interest AND the FA office. I asked many questions, I informed them of the limits of my family’s ability to contribute (20K/year). I applied to several schools because I was competitive for merit aid. (Duke included) I applied to Duke because I DID like it! I liked what they told me. “If admitted you won’t have to worry about cost, we will make it afforable” … really? Do you think I’m the only one? What was Duke’s yield? I would guess the VAST majority of those who declined offers did so for financial reasons. The admissions process is “need blind”, yet they are making NO progress on socioeconomic diversity. What does that tell you?</p>

<p>“That’s what it is, if you can’t stomach it, then avoid it. But as much as it pains me to say (I’m middle class too), Duke’s FA implementation will not change in the future no matter how much anyone questions it on CC.”</p>

<p><sigh>, I take people at their word, if that’s a crime, I plead guilty. As for Duke not changing, they MUST change. The administration knows they have a problem. They want to be/stay a top tier school and to do so they MUST start yielding more of their admits. IF they continue to be a school for “rich kids”, they have nowhere to go but DOWN.</sigh></p>

<p>"FA has nothing to do with quality of education, student life, … "</p>

<p>The Duke admins disagree with you.</p>

<p>Edit: "let’s not blindly make judgments on the priorities of Duke students/alumni. Up to now this discussion has been pretty civil and rational but let’s not intentionally wander into subjective opinions that will surely offend (ie let’s not ■■■■■). "</p>

<p>Yet you have no problem making judgments and expressing “subjective opinions” about Duke applicants, the vast majority of which do not matriculate.</p>

[king26]

<p>Very good actually. Schools with big endowments= great aid packages</p>

[SBR]

<p>^ What’s with all that personal hate for me plumazul? Did I kill your puppy or something? I clearly said that I didn’t know the specifics of your case and responded to the other poster’s implication that Duke likes to conceal the realities of their FA system. </p>

<p>1) Knowing about something and making an informed decision is not synonymous. Since you knew about Duke’s FA and its implementation you must have some idea that there’s a possibility that you might consider the costs too high. Yet you still applied after know all that information. That means you tacitly agreed that the risk is worth the attempt. It didn’t turn out the way you hoped so you complained about it on CC? </p>

<p>Also, when they said they’d make it affordable, that’s a pretty blanket statement. Did they give you specific estimates? Did they give you ballpark figures? Did they ask to see tax forms and asset declarations? Or did you just took it at face value? What if a BMW salesman told you he’d make a 7-series affordable? Would you have expected him to give it to you for the price of a camry? </p>

<p>Finally, how do you know there’s been no progress on socioeconomic diversity? Because you thought the price was too high? Because the yield is low? Did you take a look at the student body’s statistics? Or did you look at the Chronicle’s average student family income of $250K and thought that must be everyone? </p>

<p>2) Taking people at their word is a great attribute but ultimately it’s up to you to make your own choices. As for staying/being a top tier school, I think FA-wise, they are doing the best they can and will continue to improve. I just don’t understand your fixation with the whole “rich kids” thing. Because they are rich, they are somehow stigmatized? Because rich kids automatically means a school will go down? </p>

<p>3) OK, I will say that FA has some influences on student life, my bad. </p>

<p>4) Yeah I’m not perfect, I have in the past made judgments and subjective opinions about Duke applicants (whether or not they matriculate). But that won’t stop me from pointing out that such comments should ideally have no place in rational discussions, especially when they are irrelevant to the subject at hand. </p>

<p>So I’ll ask again, what’s with all the hate? Is it because you think I’m a “rich kid?” (which I’m decidedly not)</p>

<p>Edit: would also like to address objob’s assertion about Brown’s commitment to socioeconomic diversity:</p>

<p>

@objobs

Duke has a $4.4B endowment; Brown’s is only $2B. So percentage-wise, Brown is spending about twice as much of its endowment on FA as Duke. Which school do you think demonstrates a higher commitment to affordability and socioeconomic diversity?

</p>

<p>Percentage-wise then Duke spends a lot more of its endowment than harvard what does that say about Harvard’s commitment? In fact, given Harvard’s endowment, they should just make tuition free for all students period. In the end, the truth is that Duke spends more on FA than Brown, so from a quantitative point of view, Duke’s FA gives more aid than Brown’s FA. </p>

<p>Also, the fact that Brown has such a commitment yet spends less than Duke for a similar student body size is actually indicative of the realities of the “socioeconomic diversity” at Brown.</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@objobs

Duke has a $4.4B endowment; Brown’s is only $2B. So percentage-wise, Brown is spending about twice as much of its endowment on FA as Duke. Which school do you think demonstrates a higher commitment to affordability and socioeconomic diversity?

Oh, it’s not that simple. Duke has a mission to provide financial aid to ALL of its students - not just cater to the whims of its undergrads. After all, despite all the entitled huff and puff about undergraduates on CC, they’re really only a small part of a much larger university.</p>

<p>What about all of the graduate students in arts & sciences, engineering, nursing, medicine, law, business, environmental science, divinity, and public policy? Do they not deserve funding as well? Duke has nearly 3 1/2 times as many grad/professional students as Brown, and such students are not cheap. </p>

<p>An operating budget only goes so far, and Duke’s pockets are unfortunately not unlimited. Deep, to be sure, but not unlimited.</p>

[plumazul]

<p>@SBR, … wow …</p>

<p>"But that won’t stop me from pointing out that such comments should ideally have no place in rational discussions, especially when they are irrelevant to the subject at hand.</p>

<p>So I’ll ask again, what’s with all the hate? … "</p>

<p>omg, did you really just type this? … Hate? You bookend your post to me with undocumented references to “hate”? Wow, … I’m a 16 yo girl with a full ride to a great university and a very bright future, I couldn’t be happier and hate NO ONE. You might consider your own advice and “if you can’t stomach it, then avoid it” OR you could stop posting comments that " … have no place in rational discussions, especially when they are irrelevant to the subject at hand"</p>

<p>“how do you know there’s been no progress on socioeconomic diversity? Because you thought the price was too high?”</p>

<p>[Duke</a> draws ?rich kids of all colors? | Drupal](<a href=“- The Chronicle”>Duke draws ‘rich kids of all colors’ - The Chronicle)</p>

<p>“I just don’t understand your fixation with the whole “rich kids” thing.”</p>

<p>Every time I use the term “rich kids” I put it in quotes because it’s NOT my term, it’s from the Chronicle.</p>

[objobs]

<p>

@SBR

Quote:
Originally Posted by objobs
Duke has a $4.4B endowment; Brown’s is only $2B. So percentage-wise, Brown is spending about twice as much of its endowment on FA as Duke. Which school do you think demonstrates a higher commitment to affordability and socioeconomic diversity? </p>

<p>Percentage-wise then Duke spends a lot more of its endowment than harvard what does that say about Harvard’s commitment? In fact, given Harvard’s endowment, they should just make tuition free for all students period. In the end, the truth is that Duke spends more on FA than Brown, so from a quantitative point of view, Duke’s FA gives more aid than Brown’s FA.

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<p>Yes, but Brown offers comparable FA to Duke whereas Duke does not offer comparable FA to Harvard. I brought up the differences in percentage to highlight that endowment size may not necessarily be the deciding mitigating factor, as you seem to suggest:</p>

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@SBR

It’s important to note the difference in endowment size between Duke and HYPSM

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<p>In other words, Brown can offer fairly equivalent FA to Duke despite having less than 1/2 of the latter’s endowment.</p>

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@SBR

Also, the fact that Brown has such a commitment yet spends less than Duke for a similar student body size is actually indicative of the realities of the “socioeconomic diversity” at Brown.

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<p>This is another data point to support that Brown (as well as many of Duke’s other peers) have a greater commitment to socioeconomic diversity than Duke:</p>

<p>[QuestBridge:</a> Students: Partners](<a href=“http://www.questbridge.org/students/partners.html]QuestBridge:”>http://www.questbridge.org/students/partners.html)</p>

[SBR]

<p>uhhhh…right plumazul</p>

<p>I’ll just point out that when I say hate I really mean what’s with your fixation on my posts. You seemed to have read insults and implications where there were none and decided to take great offense to it. </p>

<p>Congratulations, you are a 16 yo girls with a full ride and a bright future. I’ll leave it at that. </p>

<p>I never said I can’t stomach it, if I can’t take the posts of a 16yo then I wouldn’t be online at all. I’m just surprised at the venom and sarcasm that seems to be sprinkled throughout your posts. </p>

<p>Allow me to point out something though. </p>

<p>When I said that whole comment about irrelevance that you seems so intent on, I was pointing out the the priorities of student/alumni in endowing merit scholarships and questioning them has nothing to do with how Duke chooses to implement its FA policy. </p>

<p>Then I asked why all the hate because you seemed intent on thinking that I was personally attacking you with some unintended slight of some kind and that you needed to respond. Irrelevant? All right, then I apologize. </p>

<p>As for socioeconomic diversity, ok, my bad, Duke hasn’t made much progress. But then again, let’s not just single out Duke then:</p>

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This issue is not unique to Duke. Using the percentage of students receiving Pell grants as an indicator, only 6 to 16 percent of students come from low-income backgrounds at top private universities, according to a 2010 report released by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. Since 2004, only seven out of the top 30 universities ranked by U.S. News & World Report have shown an increase in the percentage of such students.

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<p>So I’d say in that regard Duke might actually be par for the course. Certainly deserves more improvement (which Duke is working towards) but not something scandalous. </p>

<p>As for the terms “rich kids” what I don’t understand is that you seem to tie (or imply) all the ills of the university to the presence of these “rich kids” (whether or not it’s your term) when the only reason they have that moniker is that the majority of the student body does not fall in the lower half of the US income distribution. That says nothing about their impact as students on the school beyond socioeconomic diversity implications. Yet, you use the term in the context of a broad judgment on these “rich kids.”</p>

[objobs]

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@warblersrule86

Quote:
Originally Posted by objobs
Duke has a $4.4B endowment; Brown’s is only $2B. So percentage-wise, Brown is spending about twice as much of its endowment on FA as Duke. Which school do you think demonstrates a higher commitment to affordability and socioeconomic diversity? </p>

<p>Oh, it’s not that simple. Duke has a mission to provide financial aid to ALL of its students - not just cater to the whims of its undergrads. After all, despite all the entitled huff and puff about undergraduates on CC, they’re really only a small part of a much larger university.

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<p>Of course, but the OP and the other students reading this thread in this COLLEGE forum are aspiring or current UNDERgraduates. So they don’t care why they’re getting less FA than their peers, only THAT they are.</p>

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@warblersrule86

What about all of the graduate students in arts & sciences, engineering, nursing, medicine, law, business, environmental science, divinity, and public policy? Do they not deserve funding as well?

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<p>Sure, they do. But again, why would this be remotely relevant to prospective or current COLLEGE students?</p>

<p>And if you’re going down this slippery slope, can you explain why Duke has relatively weaker FA than Columbia and Penn, despite the fact that each of these non-HYP Ivies has a greater number of graduate students than Duke?</p>