How good it has to be to become a hook

Parents Forum
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<p>Dad2, I don’t think it matters if your son is Asian or Caucasian in terms of admissions. The issue is the “classic” asian resume that is so plentiful at the top schools that it does not generate the excitement that such stats used to incite. I have seen many non Asians with the same skillsets, interests, stats get the same results in college admissions. The truth of the matter is that the excellent stats DO give Asians, non Asians, anyone a definite chance of getting into the most selective schools. Without those stats, it is nigh impossible to get into those schools. What you are asking is whether chess would a “hook” that would sweeten the offerings to give such a applicant a better chance of admissions. The answer to that is that it is not likely unless the level of chess is very, very high. Many Harvard and other selective school kids are outstanding chess players at the championship levels. Getting master level is not really even something that is going to excite a school that much. There are only a few schools willing to pay for chess champs, which gives you some idea what the value of that particular hook is. On the other hand being in the upmost few best on an international level in nearly anything is going to be a hook that gets a second look. </p>

<p>Also I don’t know where you live, but around here there are a lot of Russian, Indian (from India) and Asian chess players. Just about as many as there are in the orchestras. So much for a non Asian hook. </p>

<p>Also, I don’t think being an Asian sportshound is going to garner anymore interest either. I do not believe schools separate out who is a typical asian and who is not. The only racial/ethnic groups that are sorted out and given a separate look are the URMs. Our friends whose daughter falls into the category of high stat Russian immigrant, violin playing, academic focus has the same issues about falling into stereotype. It’s not the stereotype, it’s just that she falls into a category that has a lot of kids in it vying for top school spots. Now for her, chess and engineering could be good hook in combination with the other attributes, because it shows that she is interested and does well in areas that are male dominated. Schools are looking for females in engineering, and the chess just adds the topping that she is comfortable doing well in predominently male activities. If she were male, she would just be another applicant among many.</p>

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<p>I’m amazed no one has pointed out that the best way for an Asian male to be noticed is to be a star football player. </p>

<p>OK, a more serious answer:</p>

<p>Dad II, if you want a real hook for your son, do the research and find colleges that are desperate for boys and have small Asian populations. I’ll bet there are a bunch of top LACs in this situation. Especially look at formerly all-girl schools: Vassar, Skidmore, Connecticut. I haven’t done the research, but I’ll bet schools like Bowdoin, Middlebury, Carleton, Haverford, Grinnell, Colby and Bates – all top LACs – would love more Asian boys.</p>

<p>If you want your son to go to HYPS, MIT, Stanford – where thousands of Asian males apply – then yes, you’ve got a problem. Zig when everyone else zags, and you’ve got a hook.</p>

<p>Finally – my biggest beef with you is your insistence that you are poor. I’m going to repeat what everyone else here says – not only aren’t you poor, you’re not even middle class. You are affluent. You are rich. Period. I don’t care where you live and what your neighbors earn, your income and assets make you wealthy. And I am very tired of your getting sympathy from CC members who haven’t read your old comments and believe you when you complain that you are poor. You are deceiving them, and I think that’s wrong.</p>

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<p>Yes: Want your son to do well in admissions to top colleges? Have him become a star football player (surely, you can afford to pay the big bucks to get him specialized coaching), and develop a passion and expertise in the arts or humanities. Not too many males of any race with that combination.</p>

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<p>yes, Asian or not.</p>

<p>So let your son be the best version of his authentic self that he can be. This is scary; no formulas for acceptance. But your son is no longer an URM. Not really. Sorry. So he will need to write about his life and experience in an authentic and compelling way to stand out. This is not something you can engineer for him. Sorry!</p>

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<p>There are schools that are so vanilla white that would consider Asians URM. If that is what you want, you can find them. </p>

<p>If your son is an excellent student with high test scores, with a counselor/teachers to give great refs, has some solid ECs, and some good essays, he has a shot at any of the schools. If he has a talent that any school really wants, he will have a better shot. Having a passion for chess, or anything certainly gives more info about him, but as far as becoming a hook, he would have to be at the national/international level for it to get a college’s interest, and then only maybe.</p>

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<p>“If you want your son to go to HYPS, MIT, Stanford – where thousands of Asian males apply – then yes, you’ve got a problem. Zig when everyone else zags, and you’ve got a hook.”</p>

<p>Well said. Which is why “is this a hook?” really doesn’t work. The beaten path by definition isn’t a hook (unless it’s donating the aforementioned science lab or new dorm, I suppose). If it were a hook, everyone would do it and it would fail to be a hook any more.</p>

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<p>I think that there is a lot is misapprehension about what a “hook” is on this thread. Simply excelling at something, even winning a bunch of state-level or even national awards, is not a hook.</p>

<p>For example, my S was just great at those national language exams. His sophomore year, he placed second in the state in two languages. His junior year, he placed first in the state in two languages. (And was nationally ranked both of those years and freshman year. And won a 1-per-state award.)</p>

<p>This was not a hook. He was an unhooked white boy from New England, in college application terms. Luckily, he did fine.</p>

<p>Being a recruited athlete, the child of Michael Ovitz or George HW Bush, the author of a NYT-ranked best-seller, Yo-Yo Ma (not just the concertmaster of your regional youth symphony) or a high-statted URM is a hook.</p>

<p>So Dad II, the answer is that unless your son is a grand master or something close to it in HS, it is unlikely to rise to the level of hookdom.</p>

<p>Now, if he were an African American male who had a good record–although inferior to many, many unhooked rejectees–at an exclusive prep school and could run a fast-enough 200 meters, like one kid who got a likely letter from H this fall and was posting on CC, THEN he would have a “hook.” That kid was the beneficiary of a prep school education, yet he had kids pointing out that his SATs were high for an African American. I mean, come on. Was H actually going to take the kids who actually WENT to the under-funded inner-city schools and got crappy SATs? </p>

<p>Yes, it is unfair, it’s racist, and it is reality.</p>

<p>There has to be some kind of balance between nudging your kid in the direction that will give him the most opportunity in the long run, and running his life. I happen to share your interest in prestigious schools for a variety of reasons, even though it is a no-no here on CC to admit it.</p>

<p>If your kid really enjoys chess and you can afford a coach or some kind of lessons for him, why not? Just don’t expect it to be a hook. </p>

<p>I agree with those who suggest that being an atypical Asian student might do him more good in the admissions race than you think.</p>

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<p>“There has to be some kind of balance between nudging your kid in the direction that will give him the most opportunity in the long run, and running his life. I happen to share your interest in prestigious schools for a variety of reasons, even though it is a no-no here on CC to admit it.”</p>

<p>I think a lot of us share Dad II’s interest in those schools; some of us cast a wider net, though, in terms of acknowledging where excellent educations can be had, not just those schools that have names-immediately-recognizable-in-other-countries. And a lot of us share Dad II’s interest in helping his kids be the best they can be; some of us approach it from the standpoint of helping our children realize their own dreams and interests, not trying to orchestrate interests for them based on how those interests appear to adcoms.</p>

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<p>That’s what I mean by “nudging” vs “running his life.” :)</p>

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<p>Zigging or zagging is not going to create a hook. A hook is only good if that is what a targeted college wants. And it is a moving target. A hook can be a language if a school decides to add a foreign language and wants some students taking it. Or if the tenured classics prof is knocking on admissions’ doors about the lack of majors. If the swim coach at a given school is aggressive, it can be a strong hook for a swimmer; otherwise it isn’t going to help much even if the sport is there at the school and the swimmer is good. If chess becomes a big deal sport and the colleges decide that they are going to enter that arena bigtime, then a strong chess player will have his hook. When you are looking at the HPY schools, students have to be waaay up there in a talent in order for it to be a hook. Playing cello, would not be a hook, but if you are Yoyo Ma level, it would be even if the danged school did not need any cellists–the celebrity, not the ability to play cello is the hook.</p>

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<p>F&D, it is the very first time someone has classified me as “affluent and rich”. May be I should take the page from PG and you from here on. To “impress the people from old country” I should probably descripe myself as affluent and rich. The only problem is that any one could easily tell that I was lying by looking at our cars and house. The rising junior and working dad of our “affluent and rich family” do not even have a cell phone.</p>

<p>O.k. go back to meaningful discussion. At one period, I was considering LAC as an option. However, I have a very difficult time understand the concept of LAC. More importantly, DS has not shown any interest in LAC. May be should visit a couple of them. Could someone please recommend some “representitive” LAC in OH we could visit?</p>

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<p>Great question–there are several very good ones: Kenyon and Oberlin come to mind, as the best known ones there. They might not be the best LACs for your S (or they might be), but they will give you two different versions of the “feel” of an LAC.</p>

<p>But overall, the undergraduate classes and majors available at an LAC are similar to those at the undergraduate college of a University. Unless one is doing an engineering or other specialized program, most undergraduate educations are built with the same liberal arts basis whether at an LAC or a University.</p>

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<p>Dad II, try living on half the income you currently have, and by that, I don’t mean banking half of it (and then coming here and crying poor), but doing away with it entirely.</p>

<p>Even then, with only one-half the income you currently have, you wouldn’t be poor!</p>

<p>Honestly, it’s sickening that you cry poor when there are students posting on CC who are trying to figure out how to go to college when their household income is $30K. No chess coaches for them, you can bet! Count your blessings, be glad that you earn *more than twice the median household income<a href=“and%20that%20from%20just%20%5Bi%5Done%5B/i%5D%20job!”>/i</a>, and stop trying to pass yourself off as someone poor. You aren’t. </p>

<p>Go work in a soup kitchen or do something else that puts you in contact with people who really ARE dealing with economic scarcity; hanging out with your (similarly well-off) neighbors is NOT doing you any good whatsoever.</p>

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<p>According to US News & World Report, “liberal arts colleges emphasize undergraduate education and award at least half of their degrees in the liberal arts.” They tend to be smaller than research universities, which means closer interaction between students and professors. The education you get at the highest ranked LACs (using US News as a guide) is just as good as the education you’d get at the highest ranked universities – and many would argue the education is better, since the emphasis is on the undergraduate and not graduate students. </p>

<p>When it’s time for your son to visit colleges, tell us the universities you are seeing and we’ll direct you to the excellent LACs you can check out at the same time.</p>

<p>As for the money: Possessions do not define your wealth. Some of the richest people in the world dress like slobs and don’t spend money ostentatiously.</p>

<p>I hate quoting Wikipedia as a source, but I don’t have time to do more research: “In 2006, the median annual household income was $48,201.00 according to the Census Bureau.[3] … In 2006, there were approximately 116,011,000 households in the United States. 19.26% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $100,000.” </p>

<p>Based on what most Americans earn, you would be considered affluent. You can proudly tell your relatives from the old country that your earnings put you in the top 20 percent of all Americans (and I would wager that you are higher, since I think your wife works and your combined income is higher than $100,000). You can do the research to figure out where your income places you on the spectrum.</p>

<p>Based on your lifestyle, I concede that you are not wealthy or rich. But you are solidly upper middle class. The point is, you are not poor. So please please stop calling yourself poor. Be proud of your achievements and of the high salary you earn, one that you can brag about to your relatives. If they want to know why you’re not driving a luxury car, tell them you have better uses for your money and let them wonder what those are.</p>

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<p>Great post, fireandrain.</p>

<p>Dad II, the discussion of places to look for a great education for your S can be really fruitful. I think overall, you will get a more efficient and comprehensive amount of help here if you, and the rest of us, stick to that and avoid the editorializing characterizations of individual monetary worth which often seem to derail your threads. Yes, there is a place to discuss financial issues here, but avoiding misleading buzz words will most likely maximize the utility of your responses.</p>

<p>I applaud your willingness to open up your search to take a look at LACs, and I think FandD gives you a great introduction.</p>

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<p>the only plan we have now is to visit Harvard, MIT and Yale next summer if DS’s fund recovers from current level. Part of the reason is in preperation for DD’s graduate degree.</p>

<p>Both Kenyon and Oberlin are like in the middle of nowhere. Is most of LAC that way?</p>

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<p>Many are, but quite a few are in the suburbs of large cities or not far from them - Vassar, Haverford, Swarthmore, Sarah Lawrence, just to name a few.</p>

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<p>DadII,</p>

<p>Why visit H,Y, P at all? It’s a total crap shoot applying to those schools and it does not help your odds at all to visit prior to applying. We felt it was a poor use of time and money to do those visits. It did make for some hectic weeks in April when our D visited the schools that accepted her for the first time. But in retrospect I’d still forego the college visits. I think they just make kids feel a lot worse if rejected and a lot more nervous as they wait for the verdict. My D knew these were all good schools. It helped her psychologically NOT to have actually visited them. Easier to face potential rejection. And we saved thousands of dollars in travel money.</p>

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<p>Whoa, whoa, whoa there pardner. DD hasn’t started college yet. She may be interested in a specific major, but even the most dedicated single-minded incoming freshman may become interested in something else. Harvard, MIT and Yale are all wonderful schools of course, but they may not be the optimal choice for grad study in all fields. It’s very early days to be contemplating grad school at the visit-the-campus level. If you happen to be on a family vacation in Boston (assuming that DD’s summer plans include time for family travel; she may have other plans or opportunities), then sure, why not take a look? Just be sure that the parents stay entirely out of the picture, because while professors may somewhat expect parental involvement for undergrad admissions, they sure as heck don’t for grad school.</p>

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<p>Also, Dad II, are you aware that HYPM care not a whit for demonstrated interest? Showing love by making a campus visit will not enhance any applicant’s admissions prospects at all. You may want to re-allocate some of the campus visiting budget to travel to colleges that care about an applicant’s level of interest. Also, if your son is going to consider LACs, pre-application visits are quite valuable. Each small school has a distinct campus culture, one that may or may not suit an individual student. A visit gives better information about the “feel” of a school than any guidebook can.</p>