How Important is Quality of High School in Acceptance to Elite Universities?

Parents Forum
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So we use a feederish HS that is considered very strong in STEM, and we regularly send a lot of STEM kids to highly ranked colleges for STEM.

What I am about to explain is not meant to freak you out, but to set a baseline for thinking about options.

So, we are one of those high schools that offers few APs because we consider them insufficiently challenging and too limiting. We do offer the Calc APs, but then we also offer up to two, or really three (there is an even/odd rotation), years worth of advanced math electives beyond Calc BC. We are on a trimester system, and most of the highly competitive science and engineering intenders take BC as juniors and then MVC, Linear Algebra, and either Diffy Q or another math elective as seniors. Then the really serious math kids (the ones who might actually get into MIT and such as Math intenders) take BC no later than sophomore year, and two+ years of math beyond that.

OK, so this is pretty crazy to be available all through our own Math department, and obviously not everyone going to these colleges has that sort of thing available at their secondary school. Nonetheless, we are hardly alone, and I do think this sort of thing contributes to secondary schools like our being overrepresented proportionally at such colleges.

So frankly, Option A seems like the only one really competitive with what just our ā€œnormalā€ top science and engineering kids do, and even then not necessarily competitive with what our really serious math kids do. I do wonder if there are ways around this problem at the other optionsā€“like could you do an ad hoc program at a local college? Same in fact for if you wanted to do one more year of advanced math at Option A.

But holding that asideā€“yes, to be frank, I think it can be an advantage to have something like Option A available. Not necessarily decisive, but it is just going to make it easier to show you are really a math outlier, beyond what the SAT/ACT and APs can show.

But if the other options would be a lot better in other ways, then I would aggressively explore college course options even if they are not part of the normal curriculum plan.

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42

Are you sure you son has an option to attend all 3 - in my experience grade 10 is not a common entry year for independent schools and I donā€™t think decisions are out yet for independent high schools (more commonly in late feb/early march). If he has a spot at all 3 schools this early - that is a win for you and nice to have options.

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Option A seems like the best academic fit ā€“ the question is whether there are other ā€œfitā€ considerations that are important to your family.

I donā€™t know if this has come up yet in the thread yet (I skimmed), but there are a few points to keep in mind about the AP vs. DE curriculum:

  • DE credits are most likely to be accepted by in-state schools, because community college-level courses are best aligned with college-level general studies at public universities in-state.
  • AP courses usually provide a bigger boost for a weighted GPA. Often, high schools donā€™t weight DE courses. Colleges and universities often have their own weighting systems for applicants, which are also more likely to favor AP courses.
  • Colleges (especially more selective schools) generally consider AP courses (with high test scores to match high course grades) more rigorous than DE courses. Iā€™m not a huge fan of the AP curriculum, and I donā€™t think most of those courses match the level of difficulty of the corresponding college courses, BUT for private/selective/OOS schools, they tend to hold more weight than DE for rigor, and they are more likely to earn course credit or exemption from some requirements.
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44

This thread, on a related topic (math-advanced kid) might be of interest

45

Stepping away from college admission per se, it looks like the student will run out of math after 10th grade at schools B and C. So they may be unsatisfyingly limited in some academic areas and thus not good academic fits.

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46

Option A for a student like this.

47

One thing I did not appreciate before I read Who Gets In and Why by Jeff Selingo is how significant the relationship between certain high schools and selective colleges can be.

Certain school counselors have long-standing relationships with the admissions staff at specific schools and their recommendations carry a lot of weight; students recommended by that school are more of a ā€œsure thing.ā€

Contrast that to the big public high school where my kid went, which offered a ton of AP courses, but was in no way a feeder to any elite schools. The counselors were overworked and spread thin, barely knew my kid, and I suspect had strong relationships with the local regional public university and community college, but next to none with highly selective schools. The kids who got great acceptances did so more in spite of their school than because of it.

If I were in your shoes and had my eye on the possibility of admission to selective schools, a big part of my analysis would focus on the school college counselor, the guidance each student receives, and the track record of acceptances at schools (apart from athletic recruits). I think that piece is as important as the courses offered.

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48

Academically, Option A seems to be the obvious choice for this student. Even beyond getting in at someplace like Caltech or MIT, you want to be able to hit the ground running at places like that (i.e. the highest possible high school rigor).

It also seems a waste mentally for a student to be double accelerated early on and then fizzle out in junior/senior years because there is nothing left to take for math/science.

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49

Option A. All the way. It has the right combo of sending kids to elites AND has a known track for post- BC math plus a variety of well established AP Stem and non-stem courses. ā€œOption Aā€ type schools are the best way to get a solid base of rigor in HS and still be able to launch into the ivy-plus schools with the skills needed to excel (in -depth writing, analytic reading, challenging Stem courses).
The only caveat of Option-A schools is the peer group is competitive and the expectation with all of those AP options is that one takes the highest rigor possible even in subjects they do not love. Elites evaluate you on what you take in the context of what is offered at your school. Option A kids have to be the kind to run the table with top rigor in all areas, to have the best chance for ivy-plus (barring major hooks).

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50

Parent: ā€œWhat would you like for dessert?
Option A: A bowl of ice cream
Option B: A bowl of worms
Option C: A bowl of gravelā€

Kid: ā€œIs this a trick question?ā€

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51

I guess Iā€™d potentially counter others with this:

or reasons other than academics (cost, sports, etc),

Obviously, if you canā€™t afford a school, then itā€™s an issue. Of course, the cost today is the investment in a potential choice tomorrow (college).

Or if sports are a prominent part of his life - or heā€™s a recruitable athlete and one school (C) has a track record sports wise.

I agree with others - School A seems, from an academic level, the right schoolā€¦but there are obviously more issues involved - hence your question. Something is pulling you, potentially away, from school A.

High school is four years - and hopefully a wonderful experience and for many sports are a HUGE part of the experience. Obviously, there are tradeoffs - and getting to play a sport for four years is one of those wonderful things.

So there might have to be tradeoff - and whatever you decide, if your son is the academic stud he seems, hopefully it will all work out in the end - getting to the same college no matter where he attends.

Good luck.

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Iā€™ve seen at least a dozen cases of kids at option A who burn out. There are lots of reasons to choose B or Cā€¦hence my question ā€œwhat does the kid want?ā€

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53

Each school has pros and cons. School A has the academic rigor and incredible facilities. A few potential drawbacks:

  • Sports team are elite. My son likes sports but it would be challenging to make the teams here
  • Cost. Tuition is ~$10k/yr more than Options B and C.
  • Social Fit - Connected to cost, many families in the school are very wealthy. We are upper middle class. Possible temptation to ā€œkeep up with the Jonesā€
54

I have searched each of their websites and can find very little in the way of matriculation data.

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Reach out to the schools themselves.

They should have data. If not, maybe not worth it. They should be able to show you outcomes, pure and simple.

Even at school B/C, thereā€™s no assurance of making a team.

As for the economics, your son will be around a variety of kids from different socioeconomic statuses in life - and you can teach him, show him about - not being able to keep up with the joneses, etc. If youā€™re upper middle class, heā€™s likely already living the good life.

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56

Good insight. You listed most of the math courses (for high school) that I took in college and I was an engineering major with a math minor :grinning:

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57

He is accepted to Options A and C. We are waiting on Option B.

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58

Calc BC would will fill 11th grade at Option B, but your point stands.

59

Good point. He does not love to write and would likely have to take the AP English courses at Option A in order to complete the ā€œmost rigorousā€ course of study.

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The kids enjoys an academic challenge and will be drawn to Option A. As parents, we want to make sure we are considering the social fit, sports, and the needs of the next two children as well.