How important is SAT or ACT score?

<p>DD is a junior now, she is really into FIRST Robotics and has been involved all through high-school. This is her second year as one of the leader of the team and has been involved with mechanical design including CAD, milling etc. She is hardworking, takes tough classes and gets good grades. My only problem is that she doesn’t see it is important to study for SAT or ACT. She gave PSAT last year, but only got about 80percentile score which is not very impressive. How important are SAT/ACT scores for admission to good engineering schools?</p>

<p>I like to knw the answer too. any one ?</p>

<p>As a freshman applicant, I would say they are absolutely important. Think of it this way, each high school has a handful of the smarter kids. There are only a few of them so competition isn’t that tough. The thing is, ALL schools have those same smart kids, and now they are all applying to the same college. In this pool, your daughter will no longer be the creme of the crop. In this pool, the majority of applicants are academically very similar. So how does she make herself stand out and actually compete against THOSE students that she wasn’t able to compete with in high school? Standardized Tests. And, just because she isn’t taking it seriously, doesn’t mean every other applicant that would love to take her spot isn’t.</p>

<p>SAT is best viewed as a game. Scores, with effort, and more importantly, strategy, can improve dramatically if an applicant desires.</p>

<p>She may be looking at school’s selectivity and thinking she’s a lock even with soft SAT scores. What she may not know is that engineering plays by different rules. Even at large state schools with high acceptance rates, engineering can be as hard to get into as very selective, elite schools.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>The answer is always it depends on the school. But…</p>

<p>Schools need a way to rank applications in a list, with the most desirable students at the top. They then start handing out admissions, scholarships, etc based on their position in the list. </p>

<p>If you want to get into tougher schools or get scholarship money, get a competitive score.</p>

<p>I would agree that the SAT is very important to get into a highly ranked institution, even if it is a public that has a higher acceptance rate and lower mean SAT overall. I don’t think, however, that the SAT is how you separate yourself from other students. That’s where the robotics experience comes in.</p>

<p>There’s considerable evidence nowadays to support the fact (including a post from MIT Chris) that once you’re beyond a certain SAT score, it makes no difference to the admissions directors. The one cited above said that a 750 and an 800 on the SAT II math are treated essentially the same. The SAT is a bit less agreed upon, and it depends on where you’re applying. Some say 2100, others 2200 and even 2250. I would say a minimum is 1400 M+CR, with 1450-1500 being a safer bet, and I would agree on the 750 for SAT IIs. </p>

<p>Once you have those “floor” scores, though, you’re basically trying to sell yourself to the admissions office. You do this by being as active as possible in science and engineering extracurriculars, and also bringing up the people around on those clubs/teams. For example, don’t just be a captain of robotics, design something intuitive for the robot that separates your team and brings it success in regional/national competitions. One of my friends from HS did this, and even though he didn’t have the great standardized test scores (2060 SAT/32 ACT), he still got into Brown CS. He dreamed of going to MIT for years, but that’s still not a bad constellation prize.</p>

<p>In terms of actually succeeding in engineering, a study at the University of Oregon indicates that students unable to make at least a 600 on the SAT math section are very unlikely to succeed majoring in math and physics; they suggest that engineering may be similar, but University of Oregon does not have engineering (and therefore no engineering students to study). The result is not that surprising – students who struggle with the high school level math on the SAT math section may be unable to handle the college level math that is heavily used in some majors.</p>

<p>[[1011.0663</a>] Nonlinear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics](<a href=“http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.0663][1011.0663”>[1011.0663] Nonlinear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics)</p>

<p>She got 80th percentile overall on the PSAT but what about math subscores? Those are far more important for engineers.</p>

<p>The relative importance of the ACT/SAT compared to othe metrics varies quite a bit by university. You can get into some very, bet good engineering programs at state flagships with good, not great, test scores, especially if you are in-state (e.g. Purdue). You will need more for the MITs and Stanford’s of the world though.</p>

<p>That said, it is important to do well on the exams, not necessarily to study. That is highly personal. I didn study a wink for the ACT or the SAT when I took them back in they day and did just fine and ended up at UIUC for mechanical engineering. Other people I know really had to prepare. It’s just a personal thing.</p>

<p>The bottom line is she should start getting some target schools in mind and look up their average test scores and do what she feels she needs to in order to shoot or average or better test scores for the given department. After a year of undergrad, no one will care about those scores anyway so she doesn’t have to hit the 99th percentile or anything unless that is normal for the school.</p>

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<p>boneh3ad makes great points. I’d only add two caveats.</p>

<p>At schools like UiUC and Purdue, look at SAT ranges for engineers, not general admits. You may have to contact the school to get that information.</p>

<p>At selective schools that also have scholarship athletic programs like Stanford and Northwestern, use the 75 percentile as the mean for unhooked applicants (athlete, wrote a book, went to the Olympics, etc.). The athletes at those schools are considered at the lower ranges, but they can’t admit many others with those scores without risking a decrease in their selectivity ranking.</p>

<p>ucbalumnus…I have a hard time with that premise. Lots of kids’ best efforts don’t shine on standardized tests. IMO, to say that a student should rule out engineering based on their performance on one test is silly. At best.</p>

<p>Of course I took the SAT and ACT in the previous century but I do remember that my SAT Math score and my Math & Science scores on the ACT helped me for admissions. I was a barely 3.0 GPA student in high school with my highest math being something called “Analytic Geometry” (another pre-calc type course) and was admitted to the following schools:</p>

<p>Ohio State (I am from Ohio and back then Ohio State did not have super-high admission GPA’s)
Syracuse (given very little financial help)
Dartmouth (given very little financial help)
Michigan State (given the best financial package)
Indiana Univ (planned to be Physics major since there was no engineering there)</p>

<p>I ended up choosing Michigan State for undergrad.</p>

<p>I do remember many incoming freshman (from Michigan) with me had higher high-school GPA’s but their Math SAT/ACT were not as high as mine. Also, many of them had higher GPA’s but for some reason could not test into Calculus I right off the bat (I tested into Calculus I).</p>

<p>So like someone else mentioned, the SAT/ACT (especially the Math score) can be very important for engineering majors.</p>

<p>Note: I had planned to be an EE major but had to “tap out” after electromagnetic waves…then switched to Math/CS.</p>

<p>Yes lots of kids don’t test well, but ultimately, SAT/ACT math is very, very easy. It is arithmetic, algebra and trigonometry. For most engineers, these kinds of things shouldn’t hardly require thought, at least at the ACT/SAT level. For that reason I can see there being a loose correlation at least in terms of pass/fail. If you don’t have a nearly automatic ability with that then the basic calculus and physics “weeder” courses are going to hurt.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I don’t believe there has ever been shown a correlation between SAT/ACT performance and final GPA for those who do finish the program. I wouldn’t expect anything more than a week correlation at best. Some of the best testers I know were middling students in undergrad and some of the brightest students had fairly pedestrian test scores compared to the whole of the undergraduate engineering student body.</p>

<p>Basically, test scores can be an indicator of your readiness for the basic intro math and physics courses and your likelihood of passing them easily and therefore sticking with the program, but they probably aren’t so good an indicator of your potential to excel. I would even call them a poor indicator of that.</p>

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<p>That same study does indicate that there are no similar thresholds for other majors for any standardized tests.</p>

<p>But it is not outlandish for them to find what they found, since SAT math is relatively simple (9th and 10th grade level, maybe some 11th grade level), so students struggling with SAT math would likely struggle with more advanced math found in college.</p>

<p>Another thing is…and I know some of you engineering/science/math majors can attest is that different folks can grasp different concepts at quicker/better level. Yes, there are some students who went A+ right through Calculus I, II, III, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations BUT there are many cases where one found Calc II easier than Calc I or Calc III easier than Calc II. Some are great at ordinary Diff Eqs but struggle a little with partial Diff Eqs (and vice versa).</p>

<p>Even on the jobfront, me (and other database/DBA types) cannot believe how some hot-shot Java/C++/Whatever developers cannot grasp database concepts (foreign keys, etc) but can create an abstract data type from another abstract data type can reduce the lines of code by 50%.</p>

<p>It’s what makes engineering and science exciting because so many folks can specialize/struggle in so many areas.</p>

<p>@boneh3ad, I don’t remember her math score, but I do remember it wasn’t a great score though. I will check tonight. She likes math and was placed in the top 15% of the students at a state level test. </p>

<p>@ucbaluumnus, she is taking pre-calc this year and has been complaining that it is easier for her. Though she is not taking highly advanced math classes, she enjoys the math classes and liked the physics class last year a lot. So I feel like she can be successful in engineering. </p>

<p>Thank you all for the feedback. You all are saying the same thing - high SAT/ACT scores are important in addition to good grades and good EC. I will show her the feedback, I hope she will take SAT/ACT seriously.</p>

<p>Precalculus as a junior is already a year ahead in math, so she is likely one of the better students in math (it is almost a given that such students will score >600 on the SAT math unless they take it before completing algebra and geometry in high school). Assuming she does well in precalculus this year and calculus next year, she should be fine as far as math goes for engineering, unless the high school’s math is really deficient*.</p>

<p>If test taking skills are possibly the problem, she may want to practice those (e.g. how to guess, do the easy problems within a section first and come back to them, etc.).</p>

<p>*If this is true, then SAT math and AP calculus scores likely are low overall at the school, and/or recent alumni are being placed in remedial math at their colleges.</p>

<p>She may not seem in your eyes to be taking advanced math classes, but she’s basically right on schedule, taking Calculus her senior year. Only the accelerated students are more advanced. Most bail into finite math and statistics. She won’t skip any undergraduate math as an engineer, but she will not be behind. </p>

<p>In the end, she’s right, those tests are stupid. It’s a great life lesson though. Sometimes we have to endure the stupid and mundane things as sort of a litmus test to move forward.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

<p>I checked her scores for PSAT, she actually got lower score for math - 78 percentile and 94 percentile for CR and W sections. I hope she realizes the importance of practicing to avoid the silly mistakes.</p>

<p>@eyemgh, thank you. Your comments made me feel a lot better. As a typical mom, I will continue to remind her that she needs to practice but leave it to her. In the end it is her decision. </p>

<p>@ucbalumnus, I think she is making a lot of silly mistakes and/or spending a lot of time on some of the problems and running out of time at the end. </p>

<p>Any suggestions for avoiding silly mistakes? I think practice should help with that, but am wondering if there are any sites that make the practice a bit more fun.</p>

<p>I think for a kid that gets math it is easier to bring these scores up than reading scores. Someone on CC suggested this to me and I will pass it on to you. If she can set a target to practice 30 minutes a day more or less it could help a lot. Then maybe some practice sections timed. Some of the practice can be reviewing and gaining understanding of mistakes. My S’s math SAT scores increased 140 points (600 to 740) by just doing this. He proably studied 30/day about 3 days a week for about a month. The improvement amazed me.</p>

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<p>Practice with old real SATs under test conditions. But she should note which answers she was not confident on, or which took her a long time, and spend extra time reviewing the problem afterward (whether or not she got it correct). Also, the after-test review should include trying any that were left blank due to running out of time.</p>

<p>Some problems are more easily solved by plugging in the answers to the question rather than solving it the usual way. If a question takes too long to handle, skip it, and come back to it if there is time left for this section.</p>

<p>It has been found that girls guess less often than boys do. She should be aware that guessing has a positive expected value if she can eliminate just one answer as certainly incorrect, and the same expected value as leaving the question blank if the guess is purely random.</p>