How low is too low?

Applying to College
1

I know this may be something that’s very subjective and is a question that many colleges may not answer, leaving students with an ounce of hope and a question that is “What if?”

I’m currently applying to the National College Match and have become selected as a Finalist, however, this post is more related to college admissions in general, so I hope this is the right category to post this in. On the statistics page for the National Match, it says the middle 50% of applicants have an average GPA of ~3.90.

I am not trying to and hope I do not come off as pretentious or arrogant, but with my unweighted GPA of 3.65 (had a 3.75 my Senior year, but thanks, Physics C and Calculus BC) I was surprised at the outcome just based on the average 50%, and if Questbridge’s Finalist designation is a nod to an applicants possibility of performing well at many of their partner schools, how low is too low - and how would this change if Questbridge was to provide a “target” list of schools they had in mind for a Finalist?

I have been told that my GPA is far too low for many Top 10 colleges to accept me (right, but as always, “Who Knows?”) because there are “many many other kids who have taken the same courses and got a 4.0”. However, it’s strange because receiving all A-'s for all your classes at my school would warrant an unweighted GPA of 3.66, which seems comparatively low (considering rigor as well).

Even on this forum community, I’ve seen many replies to posts saying that one’s “GPA is too low”, and I understand maybe a 2.5 GPA will not cut it for these top prestigious schools, but a 4.0 and an upper 3.6 seem to be in conflict. When I think of it this way, I feel like maybe kids like me have a chance at these schools, but when everyone says otherwise, it does get discouraging and makes me question the possibility.

Am I just missing something or not seeing something with this “GPA” thing? I’ve also heard colleges first look at your GPA, then your transcript, so it seems like GPA is something they look at to cut many applicants (and a college admissions counselor has told me this is why I was probably immediately rejected all throughout last year) although they don’t have a set “cut-off”.

So, what gives?

2

My youngest had a 4.0 unweighted GPA on. 4.0 scale He was not the only one in his class with straight As. His school only identifies the valedictorian’s and salutatorian’s class ranks, though they do let you know if you are in the top 10%, 20%(?) , no idea up to what % of the class

3

Typically I would say a 3.8+ is necessary for a top school but it depends on your school and decile rankings. If you have a school with grade deflation, your 3.66 could still be top 10%. That information would be sent with your school’s profile and considered.

4

Top colleges will look at the transcript. If your school reports letter grades and your lowest is A-, that’s a different matter than gpa…

At the same time, you may face local competition from other QB kids.

What were the physics and calc grades? That’s important for stem.

5

Accidentally posted when I just meant to pause…

Of the kids accepted to the most selective at my youngest’s schools , the vals and sals took the lion’s’shares of acceptances at HPYetal consistency. In fact, over a 12 year time period, I don’t know a single kid accepted to HPYSMC, Dartmouth, Williams and Amherst who did not have some distinct hook/tag who were not Val or Sal.

One year, at another one of my kids’ schools 9 kids were accepted to Harvard. The Val, Sal, 2 athletic recruits, 2 with development/celebrity tags(that I know), 4 legacies, and 4 very specially talented students were accepted, and yes, some of the kids were multi tagged. Harvard picked well; three of those have become greats of their generation.

Whether gpa is the first culling station, depends upon the college. But, yes, the gpa is somehow turned into a class rank or standardized number that is very important most of the time in the selection process. A lot of state schools have programs to cut those with GPAs or class ranks too low, usually in combination with a test score.

And, yes, a 3.6 UW GPA on a 4.O scale will usually not make the cut at highly selective schools. Too many 4.0s. My youngest had about 20 kids in his class with an UW 4.0. That’s just one school. A 3.6 might not even make the top 20%, though the class ranks are done with Weighted GPA at that school, as are Val and Sal designations.

So you are correct that your gpa is low for acceptance to the most selective schools You can see that yourself by looking at the gpa ranges Of accepted students for those schools.

That you are a Questbridge finalist is a hook/tag for you that will likely overlook that gpa. That status also often makes exception to lower than usual test scores. From what I have seen, a zero EFC is what makes a big impact for QB matches.

Although many schools will say that they give special consideration to those who are first generation for college, who are disadvantaged in socioeconomic Status, are challenged by being in low income families and with a number of family and environmental disadvantages, unless it’s through one of these programs like QB, scholarship student to a top prep school, I don’t see a whole lot of kids accepted in these categories. Like, hardly any. I know a helluva a lot of athletic, legacy, development, celebrity, URM acceptees who are not top flight studebt’s, non Val/Sal pure excellence types. But none who are simply disadvantaged but did Danged well with a 3.6 GPA and 1350 SAT , given environmental and family situation challenges without some program or something highlighting these circumstances. In fact, I’m working with a young cousin who is exactly in these circumstances and I do not believe for an instant that his first generation to college and difficult family environment are going to help him get into the highly selective schools.

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@lookingforward
Well I had a B in both of them; I’ve never had a grade below a B- on my transcript, and never below a B since Freshmen year and had an upward trend - my STEM is very strong un my opinion, with Chemistry being quite strong - and my standardized tests show I’ve learned quite well, its just my classes were rigorous, albeit a strong curriculum, which is where my GPA suffered.

My school divides classes by a level system.

Level 2 - College Preporatory
Level 3 - Honors
Level 4/AP - High Honors/AP

I could’ve easily taken a level 3 curriculumn and scored a 3.8+, perhaps closer to a 3.9, but then maybeI would not have scored what I did on my standardized tests, but would have a stellar GPA (but less stellar weighted GPA). But I guess there are consequences to taking rigorous classes if I cannot get a straight A.

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@cptofthehouse
Hmmm so would you say in the context of Questbridge, a low GPA/test score may be overlooked? I do have some great test scores (i.e 35 ACT w/ 11 writing), ECs, and an upward trend, its just that my GPA has taken a toll with the rigor and freshmen year 1st semester.

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I think in the context of Questbridge for the very top schools very little is overlooked-- just as in all admissions these days, unfortunately. I’m not an expert on Questbridge, but I’ve seen Questbridge kids that reach too high with their top choices, thinking it will be a hook to help them get in. They’re competing against kids who are also excellent Questbridge candidates.

Last year, a Questbridge asian male I personally know applied with a 1550 and great grades and rigor-- but zero extracurriculars other than playing piano. None. He’d do his homework and play video games. He put Yale, Harvard, and Stanford, etc at the top of his match list, because he thought, why not? No match. He eventually got into and is attending the top-30 in-state public school he’d listed ninth. But I think he’d have been better off listing that school first, because being a Questbridge match confers a lot of benefits. My advice is to be realistic about your GPA and highly rank some great schools that are not one of the top 10 or maybe even top 20. You might be better off there, too (able to get the higher grades that are the aspect that matters most for med school).

Yesterday someone mentioned reading the admissions chapter of Gladwell’s book David and Goliath. I agree-- it’s worth reading and thinking about.

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Yes, QB is a hook. Also, BC Calc is a course where A B, even a C could be overlooked.

Still, you have to understand that when you are being accepted as a pure academic admit, there are many more outstanding applicants than there are seats. Yes, there are many kids these days with straight A’s. Even in the most difficult courses. It’s become more difficult each admission’s cycle. What is an Admissions Officer to do when faced with too many kids with perfect test scores and grades?

Often there are categories drawn up where a 35-36 ACT is Category 1 with say 5 points given. 3.8-4.0 unweighted is Category 2 with 5 points given—you miss that 3.8 cutoff, you get 4 points for,sat, 3.7 to under 3.8. Im just making up these cut offs, as they can differ at different schools as would the points. Points usually given for GPA/class rank, Test score, Difficulty of courses taken, recommendations, essay, ECs.

So in such a matrix, students are rewarded for taking difficult courses.

At the very most selective schools where so many vals and sals apply, as I said above, the range for getting the top # of points becomes very narrow.

Having some special designation, such as scoring well in AIME , becoming a Siemens Intel finalist, being recognized in certain known national arenas gives special bonus points. Certain hooks might too, though often they are flagged and put in a category of their own. And, yes, QB is a very powerful “hook”, especially for these schools where even those single digit admissions rates are overly optimistic because there are so many hooked, flagged , special applicants. When you are talking those top schools, you are looking at kids who are Olympians, made recognized strides in research., are published in certain known journals are ventures. So a regular excellent student faces very stiff competition.

When I viewed you original thread, it was not a huge surprise to me you were not accepted at most of those schools. That you made finalist at QB has helped your odds enormously as well as your Green card status. .

At UIUC, your stats give you about an 80% chance of acceptance. With a 3.0 and same 35 test score, chances are halved. With big schools like that, the computer often makes these cuts, and , yes, yes , yes that gpa is ever so important. As is the date you submit that application, number of seats in certain programs/majors play a huge role. Essays and recs may not even come into the picture at all. Some of my kids went to schools where they do not weigh gpa at all, and these kids often are rejected from state schools that do not recognize the rigor and difficulty of their school curriculum and course taken.

It’s not a fair process in many regards. Do remember that when you go to college and take courses, that for highly selective grad and prof programs , that gpa can be all important. That you took very difficult course or a tough major or went to a rigorous college is often not taken into consideration or not given much allowance. It’s very difficult for engineering majors to get into Med school, for instance, or too law schools due to GPAs in that field of study.

But, yes, your 3.65 is not something that would inspire any confidence in betting you would get into the most selective schools, even with a 35 ACT. Not at schools where they have more 4.0s and 36 ACTs than they can accept, and those applicants even are not slam dunks for those top stats alone. If you look at impacted programs like CS, certain business programs, engineering, bioengineering, pre Med at certain schools, 3.65 could be too low. Look at UT-Austin where you have to be upper 6% of class to be an auto-admit and if you don’t make that cut, getting accepted becomes a lottery ticket chance. Look at the UCs, where that UC GPA is a crucial part of the application. Penn state that uses 3 numbers to accept/deny —Gpa/class rank, ACT/SAT, date application accepted

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Also, you are assessed within the context of your school. Are there kids with higher grades than yours taking those rigorous courses? Will your counselor, teachers recs say you are the absolute top student they have seen in 5years, 10 years? HPY and such often look at the top 3-5 students of each class. Think about how many student that can be when you add up all the high schools that have their top kids applying.

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This. If your 3.65 put you in the top 10%, or even 15%, then you don’t need to worry about your GPA. Outside the top 20%, then I think you have a problem for top schools.

At my D’s school, the top 10% all had 4.0 UW GPAs. But, less than 3% were able to achieve that while taking the most rigorous courses. That was still 5-6 students in one school. Unfortunately at the tippy top, those are the students you are competing against.

My advice on CC has always been to create your list using the weakest link of your application to determine match and safety schools.

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@momofsenior1
Well weighted GPA wise I’d definitely be within the top 15%, but unweighted, probably not :confused: and Colleges don’t care about weighted as much.

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It’s your HS that reports your decile ranking. If they use your weighted GPA, then that’s what will be reported to colleges.

FWIW, my D’s HS used weighted GPA for reporting rank as well.

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Also its that I’d say 90% of the families at my school are well in the upper middle-class to upper class. The school is known to he a very wealthy public school in an affluent neighborhood, so I am thinking maybe that not not help.

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Also, I’m starting to get anxious like I did last year after submitting my supplements of comparing/scenarios which might attribute to why I made this post (Whoops!)

But I am curious, how would a college view a 4.0 UW GPA Questbridge Finalist with a sub 1300/low 1400 and a much lower AP score of mostly 3’s and fours and subpar SAT2 scores? Would the colleges then think there was some kind of grade inflation/less rigor?

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@kimpossible forgive me, I am not familiar with Questbridge. Is your list of schools already set in stone, or can it be changed? If it is set, then there is no point in worrying now, that won’t change anything. If the list can be modified then it makes sense to devote mental energy to thinking about possible changes.

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OP, it’s not as dire as some paint it. The QB app is more detailed than the CA and more subtleties (and strengths) can come through.

When faced with those B grades in your major, you need to make lemons into lemonade, for various reasons (esp when you feel your chem is strong.) Curious if you have an LoR from that teacher?

Don’t get freaked. Instead, make sure you know what your targets look for and show that. Let the GC note your persistence and resilience, esp considering the citizenship process. And other solid traits.

You strike me as smart and dedicated. Understand what the essay should convey, that includes supps, too.

That’s what’s in your control. And you have a fine backup, right?

I forget your other stats.

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@cinnamon1212 No worries and I’m glad to explain Questbridge. So students (seniors) apply to Questbridge in October to become finalists and also rank up to 12 colleges. If selected, they are allowed to go into the National College Match (think Match Day for Med School Residency), where they can remove or rearrange the list they made in October. Come December 2nd, Finalists will find out whether they “matched” with a college (and they match to the highest on their list), and they are binding with the exception of a few. For now, my list is now set in stone.

@lookingforward
With your (and many other’s) advice, I have very much changed my style of writing so to speak - (and those who read my atrocious essays last year will know what I’m talking about!)

I think what helped with Questbridge was how I really focussed on not trying to impress the AO’s but more tried to tell my personal stories. This played a lot in my supplements where I was trying to be specific about myself rather than go all flowery and intellectual - and taking a gap year to realize and fix this was really important.

My guidance counselor (same as when I was still a senior) has written a completely new LOR for me, detailing my persistence among some other qualities as a student - and yes, also within the context of my citizenship process. My Chemistry (and AP Chemistry and my Assistant Teaching teacher haha) teacher is one of the two LOR.

And yep, I have an amazing backup, UIUC, which is why I felt (and with my counselors green light) quite ambitious with the list (and especially since the list was binding) - but Questbridge’s no-questions-asked scholarship is sweet.

I think where I shine is through the extracurriculars and my fish breeding interests along with my test grades. Last year my essays and GPA were a sore thumb, but hopefully this year, it’ll just be my GPA…

Also: I mentioned making the lemonade with lemons in one of my supplements!

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On a side note, I have decided to change my majors…psychology and anthropology (if available to minor in a second) which has been heavily influenced by my research. I will also definitely leave chemistry/biochemistry as an option and talk about that, but I have been planting my why this major in psych and anthro.

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@kimpossible you sound so great!! I have no idea where you will go to college, but I have a very good idea of where you will go in life. You will go on to do really great, interesting things. I feel this strongly.