My daughter is a junior this year at her university. She has done lots of science research already, and wants to pursue a PhD. We are already scoping out possible PhD programs for her to apply to next year, and it seems overwhelming. With average admission rates of 15%, it makes me wonder how many programs she should apply to, and if she should bother aiming for any reaches, since it looks like they will all be reaches. Any advice?
What do her advisors tell her?
Where are the people who are doing the research that she is interested in? What do her advisors know about the relative difficulty of getting into those research groups?
Depending in what her interest proves to be, there may be a very small list of places to apply to.
She needs only one acceptance. If the admission decisions are independent (which won’t be true, but we can try using this assumption) and they are all 15%, then her probability of getting into at least one program equals 1 - (0.85)^n, where n is the number of places she applies to. So, if she applies to 10 places, her probability of getting into at least one program is 80%.
Of course, the admission rate won’t be 15% for your particular daughter. Hopefully, it will be higher, and if she has done lots of science research, that will improve her application significantly. Other factors: What has her role been in her research projects? Do her research projects involve timely topics? Has she been a co-author on published papers? Will her research mentor be able to write her a strong recommendation letter? What are her grades? What are her GRE scores (which she will probably take as a senior)?
Also, for Ph.D. work, one sometimes looks for a particular professor or lab to work with, and the institution doesn’t matter as much. This will be especially true if your daughter already knows what research topic she is most interested in.
Also, with regard to the GRE test, your daughter can certainly take it earlier, since it tests for reasoning skills rather than content. She can take some practice tests now to see how she does, which will give you a better idea about the strength of her application and also tell her how much test prep she might need. If she needs more test prep, she can do it between now and her senior year.
@mdphd92 Thanks for all the good advice. She has always scored in the 99th percentile on all standardized tests, so she expects to do well on the GRE, but she will definitely prepare in advance. I’ve advised her to do a practice test this fall, so she knows how much prep to plan for. That and her research will be the strong points. Her GPA should be around a 3.5 or 3.6 – which I hope is good enough for most PhD programs, but it may not be high enough for the top programs she used to dream of. She has two research papers in the works – one that she will be second author on, and another she should be third author on – and hopefully they will be published before next fall. She has given one poster presentation and has an invite to present at a national conference in 2018. She has two strong references relating to her research and expects to have a third from research for her honors thesis that she should start before next fall. She has some merit scholarships and a couple of significant honors.
I just don’t know what the competition is like among PhD applicants, and if she sounds like a strong contender for top programs or not. She had a 4.0 and all the works when applying for a bachelor’s degree, and now she doesn’t have the high GPA going for her anymore, so I don’t know if she needs to lower her expectations for what programs to apply to, or apply to lots of programs to increase her odds of acceptance. Her original goal was to get into one of the best PhD programs in her field.
She should talk to her professors, especially the ones she has done research with. A key part of science grad program admissions are the letters of rec. And the profs will probably have a good idea where her record fits in. Even if she doesn’t completely follow their advice, talking to them is really, really valuable. Also, depending on field, prestige of papers and professors, etc, a research record and letters can overcome a not quite perfect transcript.
I agree with the above. Research ability, as evidenced by her projects, research papers, honors thesis, and letters of recommendation, is the most important criterion. Grades (especially for those courses not related to her major) and GRE scores are less important. And, of course, extracurriculars don’t count for much at all.
One key difference between graduate school admissions and college admissions is that graduate school decisions are made by professors, unlike college decisions which are made by a dedicated non-teaching staff. That means the professors will often know the letter writers, either by reputation or personally. Sometimes, they will call one another, just to get a better sense of the candidate. Professors also go to conferences, so it is possible they may see your daughter present her talk or poster.
It’s rather extraordinary and impressive for an undergraduate to give a talk at a conference, since usually talks are given by graduate students, postdocs, and established researchers. Even undergraduates that do get their names on papers usually have made only minor contributions, and are rarely given the honor of presenting. I don’t want to put any undue pressure on your daughter, but she should make sure to get plenty of practice and feedback from her mentor and lab mates before she gives her conference talk.
@mdphd92 I actually meant she will present a poster at the conference rather than a talk, although she did give a 20-minute PowerPoint presentation to a university department at the conclusion of her summer research internship and got great feedback. I hadn’t thought about her meeting some of the professors at the conference that she might be applying to do research under in a PhD program – that is a very important point! That is very interesting to hear about the difference in prestige in giving a talk at a conference versus presenting a poster. Thank you for the insights!
@mommyrocks Ah, I understand. But even a poster presentation is a considerable honor, and if she is second- and third-author on her papers, she must have been making major contributions. I don’t know too many details, but she sounds pretty advanced in her research work.
Conferences do present opportunities for discussing ideas and networking, but at the same time, they’re generally not career fairs. If there is any job seeking, it’s generally graduate students looking for postdoc positions and professors looking for postdoc candidates among the graduate students. Nevertheless, at the poster session, some professors may see your daughter’s poster and become more familiar with her work, or at least the work in her mentor’s lab. Likewise, your daughter will be able to see the work going on in the field, and maybe she will get excited about the work in a particular lab.
What is her area of study? Some areas require or recommend a subject GRE test (e.g., Physics). My D applied to Physics grad schools last year. Her advisor in college had a lot of advice. She also researched on her own, evaluating profs in her area of interest. Part of her thinking was that she wanted at least two profs (if not more) doing research that was very interesting to her, and not likely to retire in the next 6-7 years.
She applied to 10 PhD programs and one funded master’s program. Her GPA wasn’t terrific, but she has very good recs and research experience, excellent GRE scores, and a pretty strong Physics GRE. She got into 7 programs, and visited 5 of them after acceptance. Turned down by 2, and 1 never responded (neither did the masters program), so she eventually withdrew her app from those. Because her GPA wasn’t great, she applied to a range of schools in terms of selectivity. Her goal is industry or a govt lab, not teaching. The two most selective are the ones that turned her down. She is happy now at a school that is solid in her area of interest. It isn’t her favorite part of the country – she does now wish that she’d taken a shot at a couple more reach schools in more desirable locations.
Rereading your post, there are a fair number of less selective programs, but she needs to research carefully and find a good fit with her interests. One of my D’s recommenders said her list was refreshing; it wasn’t the usual top 15-20 suspects that so many students come in with, and it was well focused on her specific interest.
It is pretty overwhelming, and there seems to be a lot less support/info for grad school admissions. We found the Grad Cafe website pretty useful. After a summer of research ahead of time & getting all her testing done, her entire Thanksgiving break and most of winter break was devoted to apps. There is also no Common App, which sucks.
Regarding the “she only needs one acceptance comment” – this is 6-7 years of her life. It is good to have some choices. My kid found that upon visiting, not all the programs were ones she would want to commit to, even though they looked good on paper. She has a couple stories if visits that are doozies. So don’t just apply to a bunch of reaches.
@intparent Thanks so much for sharing your daughter’s experience applying to PhD programs! All of that information is very helpful! I had wondered how important location is – it had been a big factor in my daughter’s choice of undergrad universities, and she was trying to downplay its significance for grad school (which is even longer). I’ll re-emphasize to her to apply to places she would actually want to live, and to be strategic in applying to a range of programs.
Well… my kid ultimately decided that the program and research opportunities did beat location for her. She is pretty happy where she ended up. I’m actually not saying to JUST apply to programs in desirable location .
She should find her niche and talk to the professors at different schools directly. Decades ago, I applied to 4 or 5 and got accepted by one.
Friend’s D is currently in her 2nd year of a 5-6 yr chemistry PhD program. Her interest is in forensic chemistry. She went to a small directional state U, graduated with a 4.0, respectable GRE (but by no means spectacular), some research (not published), varsity athlete 4 years. She applied to 9 programs east of the Mississippi and was accepted to 5, all stipend supported.
Her research professor recommended a few programs, her parents picked one, and I suggested 4 for her of which she picked 2. She did not apply to our state U with a very decent forensics program as she said it was too close to home even though it is 60 miles away. But, whatever, even though I think it would have been the best program for her.
She visited 3 programs, turned down 2 for location (too big city for her and she’s right), and accepted my first choice. She was also accepted at a top-10 program, but turned that down without visiting as she didn’t get a good vibe from the professors during the phone interviews and after looking closely at the research opportunities available to her. She really did not do enough thorough research before applying to her schools, but since she started December of senior year she literally ran out of time. The school she is at REALLY wanted her: many phone contacts, 3 day interview, lots of follow-up.
The location she is in is not her favorite, but she’s made friends and has a life outside of the chem building, including club sports at the university. She’s happy where she is and still thinks it was her best choice.
I honestly think it’s easier to get into chemistry PhD programs now than it was 40 years ago when my classmates were applying. Many science grads now look to the health care fields as they see more career opportunity than in scientific research where funding can be more uncertain.
Probably more rather than less. These programs can be very competitive and admissions sometimes seem kind of random. If she is a US citizen though, it should be a substantial advantage.
The American Institute of Physics has an online tool that was hugely helpful for my kid.
https://www.gradschoolshopper.com/gradschool/
I don’t know if any other national organizations in other areas like Chem have similar tools, but this helped her a lot in doing both an initial evaluation to see if she should dig deeper on a school, and also get info like the stipend amounts to expect.
It really can’t be emphasized too much that as post #6 writes, grad admissions are run by the professors in the department. This makes it completely different than undergrad. And the overhelming/not so much info statement is really that a lot of the info resides among the faculty in that field across the country.
So all potential grad students in the sciences (and probably all non-professional grad programs) really, really should talk to faculty members they know about grad schools. Ideally early in the fall, not December.
Agree with that. Your kid should be talking to the profs they know best in their department. Also – they will need 3 references for PhD programs. I think my kid had some applications due in early December – generally the higher ranked the school, the earlier the app is due.
Your D’s advisor should be able to tell her approximately the level of PhD program that students get into from her college.
Location is really not as big a thing as it might seems: the strong science PhDs are typically in strong universities, which per force have good college towns around them. She might not want any given town, but what will shape her experience most is the department and her cohort. As @intparent indicated, the more she knows about what she wants the better, not least b/c it helps focus on finding the right department.
My daughter also just started a STEM PhD, but did not have as clear an idea as to her focal area as @intparent’s daughter did, so for her a big emphasis in choosing places was on the grad school experience: how many researchers were doing work that was interesting to her, graduation rates/times, how much coursework/how long before starting research, how much teaching required, how many women profs/grad students, etc. As @intparent noted, the visit weekends made a very big difference, and her mental ranking shifted quite a lot in that process.
How many PhD programs to apply to is a very individual question; I’d say most competitive PhD students probably apply to anywhere between 5 and 12. The smaller end is for students who have very specific ideas of what they want to do and/or those topics are not found at many departments and/or they are very picky about going to a top program and would rather not go to grad school at all than go to a non-elite program. The bigger end is for students with broader research interests, and/or students who are super passionate about academia and research careers and know 100% that a PhD is the only thing they want to do next. I’d say 7-10 is pretty average.
Doctoral admissions don’t really have “reaches,” “safeties” and “matches” like undergrad admissions. Most PhD programs get way more competitive applicants than they can admit, and even schools that are further down in the list may still have admission rates under 25%. This is because doctoral cohorts are small - usually 4 to 10 students a year. Don’t worry about admission rates (as they are more or less meaningless here: as I point out below, they have nothing to do with an individual applicant’s probability of acceptance). Instead, she should think about her profile - GPA, GRE, research background, personal statement, letters of recommendation - and whether it matches up to accepted students’ profile at top schools. Her professors can help her calibrate her expectations.
When I was first starting a PhD, or even halfway through my PhD, I would’ve said that location doesn’t matter that much. Now that I am finished my PhD and reflect back, I’ve changed my mind - location matters a great deal to your quality of life. That doesn’t mean that it should be the #1 factor when selecting a grad school. In fact, setting location aside for more important considerations - like advisor or department - is a good idea. But as others have mentioned, you are spending 5-7 years of your young adult life there.
Big cities or suburban areas, for example, make it easier to have hobbies and friends outside of the department - which was really important to me. Especially in the later years of my program, I could pretend/act like a normal working adult and hang out with friends and do happy hour/brunch/parties/whatever. Let me tell you, that had a tremendous positive impact on my mental health. For other students, that may not be so important, and so a small college town or rural area won’t be such a bad thing. (You’ll also probably concentrate and work more in a small college town - I think I would’ve finished a year earlier in a small college town, lol.)
This is really not how it works. The first problem is that 15% just represents the percentage of applicants who are accepted; it is not a probability and you can’t treat it like one. The probability of any one applicant’s admission to a particular program is unknown.