@dstark, I figured, as you are a smart guy, but you never know…
You figured? You don’t know? I have written over 10,000 posts on the economy or finance on CC. Clearly, I am not getting my messages across on CC. 
Luckily, I enjoy my own posts.
I was talking to my cpa today. I told him I was investing in something slightly, slightly risky. I don’t think the investment is going to blow up, but I am not guaranteeing.
And my cpa said something like " I thought you were done with this risky stuff".
And I replied, "Yeah. After investing in two ponzi schemes, you would think so.
@notrichenough, I’m having fun. I liked your post.
I don’t think I am going to watch the Madoff tv show. My cpa is enjoying it.
“How much money do you need to retire” is the wrong question.
If you are going to try to amass enough cash to last you for potentially 20+ years of retired living, you have IMO an almost insurmountable task.
It would have to be a huge amount of money, even in present value dollars, but taking into account inflation it becomes gigantic. You then have the risk of having to try to invest it, which generally has a good of a chance of losing money as it does making money.
Instead, IMO people in their 30s, 40s and 50s should focus on accumulating hard, real, income producing assets. For example, cash flowing real estate.
So, the question shouldn’t be “how much cash do you think you need to have at retirement,” it should be “how much cash flow do you think you need to have at retirement.” With that philosophy, and starting early, you’ll be much better off.
@MomofJandL , now that you mention it, someone on Bogleheads had said that brokerage account forms come out later.
Anyone personally know someone who was a victim of Madoff’s ponzi scheme?
Interesting that at the time of their deaths, each of the sons had an estimated net worth of at least $15 million.
I do know someone who who put his parents in Madoff’s scheme. Luckily he didn’t bankrupt them.
ETA - come to think of it, I know someone else, too - he kept the Madoff funds in his divorce settlement, then sued his ex for more money when Madoff went belly up.
@dstark, I get your humor.
@8bagels, that is certainly one way of thinking about accumulating assets to fund retirement. Are you thinking about real estate or dividend paying stocks? As one gets older, real estate may be hard to manage and less attractive if you have to pay someone to manage the properties. But, one could conceivably swap into REITs or something like that. We have acquired a couple of rental properties by accident, but would be interested in investing in an apartment building if someone we trusted were putting together a partnership to do that.
We have acquired a couple of rental properties by accident, but they are a fair bit of work (particularly for ShawWife).
I have been reading along this thread almost from the beginning just for dstark’s jokes.
And I absolutely agree with lack of control and not necessarily being able to predict the future. My family has always put their money into land/real estate instead of stocks. Sometimes that has worked out. However, if you are counting on timber income as your cash flow, you can’t sell timber when the local mills close. Even when there is a market for timber, you can only sell when it is cost effective to transport it somewhere to do something with it. So I am extremely grateful to everyone investing in wood chip plants. Thank you. It would be best to invest in successful plants.
While I like thinking about generating cash flow rather than just saving up a bunch of money… there are no guarantees with real estate either. If people can’t afford to rent your properties for enough to cover taxes, you probably can’t sell them either except at a loss. And I know what I’m talking about there, if not about most of what is discussed on this thread.
My family has been extremely fortunate with land and real estate investments. It was just a fluke and pure luck, as my CPA keeps telling me again and again and again. If we had made money in the stock market it would make more sense to him. I am not sure why. My father used to compare long term economic planning to his poker games. He taught my sons poker when they were very young, and one of the important lessons he wanted to impart was when you could bet the farm without chance of losing it. They really got it and use it in their own financial planning.
Lol. I wouldn’t know. 
Laughing at dstark’s jokes is all well and good, but don’t forget to tip your waitperson.
For me to consider rental property I’d have to be more handy than I am, and sure that I’d be staying put. My ex and I rented out a place in West Virgina when we lived in Virginia, which was okay I guess, but when we moved to NJ, the renters figured that the cat was away, and I vowed to burn the place down before I rented it out again.
If you have a portfolio as large as Yale’s, and David Swensen in charge of it, you can own timberland, rental properties, hedge funds, etc. Unfortunately, our assets are described by a different first letter than Yale’s.
My grandfather planted timber to provide for my retirement. He didn’t count on the mills closing, which at that point in time was unforeseeable and outside the range of anyone’s experience. I am still planting timber for my grandkids. I figure it can’t hurt. The local mill is open again in a very small way. Who wants to invest in a mill? 
IxnayBob: I have enjoyed your posts as well, and everyone’s posts. Thank you. This is an informative as well as entertaining thread.
@8bagels when you said,“You then have the risk of having to try to invest it, which generally has a good of a chance of losing money as it does making money.”–were you referring to the stock market? If so, that’s a completely false assumption.
We have friends who have a minimal amount in the stock market while the majority of their assets is tied up in rental properties. They tell us they don’t trust the stock market because it’s too volatile. So as our assets which are in diversifies stock portfolios, have increased dramatically, even considering 2008 and the recent dips, their assets are pretty much the same as they were in 2009, including a decrease in 2008-9. I think it’s an emotional thing. They seem to feel a rental property they can touch just has more intrinsic value.
We stay away from real estate for our investments. We feel we have enough in our house and don’t want more property exposure.
@hayden, volatility does suck, but liquidity is nice to have, as is an accurate estimate of “how are we doing?”
Gaah! Got a new agent for a Northwestern Mutual disability policy that I bought about 15 years ago. He called me this morning. Couldn’t answer any of my questions about the policy, but was sure that I need to 1) upgrade it (yes, it’s true it will cost more because you’re 15 years older). 2) buy an annuity - we met with a Vanguard FA 2 months ago who told us we do NOT need annuities. 3) buy long-term care insurance, which I know from reading this thread (thanks, guys!) isn’t worth buying given the cost and limited benefit period and our ability to self-insure. He offered to run a Monte Carlo simulation (which the Vanguard guy already did) and then suggested maybe the one we had done wasn’t accurate. Sleazy!!! I now miss my old agent, who collected his overblown commissions and quietly spent them.
Ick, how irritating to be peddled from someone new that doesn’t even have any good understanding of YOUR situation, needs or wants.
I don’t think he cared. He was purely commission-driven. Now I understand why H didn’t want to meet with the FA at Vanguard - he was just waiting for a sales pitch at that meeting, but it never came. What a difference.
@CIEE83 Sounds like its time to use that blocking feature on your phone for the Northwestern Mutual guy. Yick.
Lol. Lesson learned! Luckily, I’m not very trusting of salespeople. I mean, I’m not rich, and I couldn’t retire now (jealous, @pizzagirl!) but we have saved for years because neither H nor I have a pension. H even borrowed money to fund an IRA in his younger years. I just started to cut back what I’m saving, because it’s probably enough, or at least it was till the stock market did what it did :-SS (not looking) and I would like to have some discretionary income before I am too old to enjoy it… I REALLY don’t want to spend one cent more on insurance than I have to. So the idea of ponying up a few thousand for LTC… shudder.
CIEE83, I’m glad you’re not very trusting and didn’t get suckered!