How much *should* public college cost?

Parents Forum
281

I’m really not suggesting anything radical. Free public college was available for many years in most places. My mom talks all the time about getting her degree from Hunter for only the cost of books. She was the first generation in her family to go to college and it was a huge step for the entire family. I’m asking that we go back to something that worked well in the past.

I’m also suggesting that students should be able to borrow sufficient funds so that they afford to dorm at public college if for some reason they lack the ability to commute. Don’t forget that regardless of parental willingness, there are thousands of kids who don’t live anywhere near an appropriate college. I’m suggesting that bare bones dorm and meals should cost around 10k per year. The vast majority of students won’t need to take the full 40k because most will have some parental support, pell grants and/or the ability to work part time and during summers to defray the cost.

I simply disagree with the idea that CC is “good enough” even if it doesn’t offer the path a student has the desire and ability to pursue. Kids who have the talent and drive to become engineers and doctors, etc, should be allowed to take the shot. A kid who takes on 40k of debt and then graduates with a job making 40k per year would be asked to pay $183 per month. If that student becomes a teacher, a nurse, or works in any other public service or non-profit capacity, she can have the debt completely discharged after 10 years. That seems possible to me.

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@gallentjill While, I admire your thinking regarding the 10K costs, it doesn’t cost 10K to educate someone. Not even close. That means that the gap has to be paid. I’m not and never will be a fan of one person picking up that cost for others. As mentioned in the thread, if we suddenly decided as a nation that those with unsupportive parents don’t have to pay we’d have a drove of people running to say they are unwilling to pay.

Some parents make sacrifices for years and save small sums (or the whole thing) for their kids college. Shouldn’t these folks be at the front of the line before people who did nothing to help themselves? What about the parent who takes a second job, the kid who works three jobs during college? All these are part of what needs to happen. The cost of education is too high ( predicated on high admin salaries and extras which are frivolous). But it’s unlikely to come down. EVER.
The medical school dilemma could be fixed in part by reducing college and medical school to a combined 6 years, creating more medical schools and many other things. Until this happens, only super high SES, driven kids will get their MD. Doctors average more than 30 patients a day, plus admin and more. And they aren’t paid as much as other professions with the same educational level. Think about it.

Honestly, I think high SES parents are also realizing medical school isn’t necessarily a good route. One of my kids wants to go to med school. My advice, there are many paths which will give you more for less. Hey, I’m pragmatic. The risk for new doctors is huge should medicine become socialized and salaries be fixed by the government. Before I paid, or let my kid pay for medical school, they would speak to a lot of doctors and get the real insight. My doctor friends have told me, it’s not a good profession anymore. I believe them.

Everyone should do an assessment as to the value of their perceived education. What are the job opportunities? What are the risks? Spending 100-300K on something which may not generate a return is silly at best, and ludicrous at worst.

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Happytimes, there is a parallel thread going on about parents who go into debt for private athletic coaching, elite music lessons, etc. If your kid has musical talent, do you give them private lessons to generate a return? Maybe. I don’t think that way. It’s neither silly nor ludicrous. For every adult playing violin for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, there are probably 50 playing in small, regional companies and earning a living teaching music, and probably 200 who play for the joy of it and earn their living as loan officers for commercial banks, or marketing managers for insurance companies. And another 500 who played as kids and eventually gave it up because they weren’t that good, didn’t like to practice, or found something they loved more.

It would be a very sad world if the ONLY people who got violin lessons were the elite few who could make it as a major orchestral musician.

Neither silly nor ludicrous.

I am probably at the median for earnings from my college class. I’ve had a reasonably successful corporate career, but have classmates who are famous, some who have really hit it big financially (and are famous, some are just really rich), and some who teach high school English, are social workers, pastors and other religious careers, etc. (One is a nun, and she earns $100 per year, which everyone in her order earns). Do you really think that ROI is the only way to measure whose career is “worth it”?

I agree with you though that since it costs greatly in excess of 10K per year to teach someone at the college level, we’re only putting a bandaid on the problem by fixing the costs at some random level which feels emotionally satisfying but doesn’t solve the problem.

The high SES parents you refer to in terms of medicine are likely NOT recent immigrants, first gen, or “ethnics”/URM’s, correct? Because in those communities, no matter how wealthy the parents are, the allure of ,medicine as a career has hardly dimmed. In fact, I see it as more intense than it was when I was in college (I was first Gen American, not first Gen college).

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Maybe not quite free, but people of the age of current parents of college students probably grew up in an era when:

A. High school graduate job opportunities that paid enough for one to self-support were more common.
B. Employers were more willing to hire high school graduates and provide on-the-job training, rather than expecting entry-level employees to have completed education and sometimes occupational licensing at their own expense (i.e. job and career opportunities were better for high school graduates without further education). The military was also probably considerably less selective back then.
C. State school tuition and books were cheap enough (in-state) that a high school graduate working to self-support could afford to “work through college”.

Of course, what this means that parental support beyond high school graduation / age 18 is more influential than it was a generation or two ago in what opportunities the new high school graduate adult can find.

285

Many of our parents or other relatives did work their way through college. Sure, “free” is easier.

But the med school problem is not a reason to reject cc. Why not reconsider the med school app position on cc courses? Oops, wouldn’t that resolve that? A kid in cc for a terminal AA and transfer might get credit for the premed related courses. Or be asked to repeat something a la the post bacc or in the final college.

But to sweep that all bright kids should have college needs some purposeful reason, other than the vague, “To give him chance.” Don’t we know by now that a college degree is no guarantee?

This is not about med school. I know engineering majors who went nowhere with the degree. The idea some percent may go on to career greatness is not sufficient. (Why just use two highly paid examples? The social workers and the nun may be just as influential- and satisfied.) Watch out for the semi romantic notion that just a few who go on to greatness is worth turning around the ship to ensure ALL bright kids go to college…and without a financial master plan behind it.

Around the country, there are some mighty fine programs (many are volunteer) that work with low SES/high potential kids. They help shape the kid’s vision and understanding, expose them to the sort of thinking we CC folks try to give our kids. They help with positioning them for college acdemics- and on the app packages. The results show in their apps.

But not all kids get this. Just the ones selected. No, not enough. But there are lots of variables in revamping the ed system and wanting to lift more kids is just the start.

Nor is this about how kids could survive, in the past, on a hs degree only job. There are still those jobs.

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While there have been many differences of opinion on this thread, I would like to just take a moment to say that I really appreciate how well thought out and civil these posts have been. You all raise excellent points and have given me a great deal to think about. Well done, us.

287

I don’t know whether we’re allowed to post a link to the publication Higher Ed
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/continuing-adventures-free-college
This article details the progress of “free community college” initiatives around the country and criticizes the NYT column, highlighting the difference between policy scientist and political scientists.

288

I highly doubt this was ever the case in the US. Public colleges have been charging for tuition and room and board since the Civil War. It was cheaper, but that goes back to the question of why college is so expensive. Why did the number of non-teaching staff increase so dramatically? When did dorms get replaced with luxury apartment complexes?

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Some states/cities had free tuition public college (CUNY, California)and most community colleges were free, some 4-year public universities had very low fees (Illinois, Wisconsin…) equivalent to roughly 1/10th of the cost of a car. So, in today’s dollars, perhaps $2,500 tuition for annual tuition.
Even just 20 years ago the NORM was to be able to pay public college without debt.
Pell Grants were originally set to cover tuition, fees, room, and board at most US public colleges.

290

Really? Most of the high school students who are entitled to free lunches don’t eat them as 14 year olds, so I don’t think college kids are going to.

In most states, a truly poor 18 year old could qualify for food stamps. Some apply but most do not.

I think it is more the lower middle class students who can’t afford the 4 year flagship because they don’t qualify for free food, free insurance, Pell grants, etc. They don’t travel home for spring break or fall break, they don’t go on spring breaks, they max out on loans.

So if we all agree that it should be free college, where does it stop? Free law school? Free med school? A masters for teaching? Free for everyone or only for those who can’t afford it? If a student gets into the flagship but also gets a free ride to Harvard, should the state school still be free or should that student be required to go to the ‘free to the state’ private school, thereby making another space available to another state resident? Do kids who can easily commute to the flagship get to live on campus because they want to? Do they have to go to the flagship or can they opt to go to another state school?

I like the system we have now. Not everyone gets to go to the flagship because it costs a lot. Those who do go take out loans, earn scholarships, work. Others chose a cheaper school.

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Actually, nearly 50% students at community colleges and public 4-year universities are food-insecure. That’s why food pantries are being developed on campuses. Expanding the free/reduced lunch program would be win win for farmers’ too.
(Also, link to stats showing most 14-year olds who qualify for free/reduced lunch, would rather either go hungry or pay; I’m willing to believe it because of the specific age but it’s still odd.)
Nowadays a college degree is necessary for a good, stable job. It’s to the 21st century and the knowledge economy what a high school diploma used to be in the 20th with skilled/trade jobs. Recognizing this, our ancestors made high school readily accessible and free, the first country to do so, often 50 or 60 years before other developed countries. Then we started losing ground in terms of college education and are no longer the front runners.

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The problem with college for all is not everyone has the capacity to do college level work. You can’t teach 100% of the population differential equations or organic chemistry. You can’t teach 50%. The only way you can graduate more than about a third of your population with a BS/BA degree is by lowering standards, which devalues the college degree for employers.

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You don’t need differential equations to graduate college, nor organic chemistry. No need to lower standards - I don’t think developed countries that have 40-44% of their population with a 4-year degree and 50%+ with a 2-year degree have lowered standards or suffered from the policy.
Now, I agree that not everyone’s qualified for college and any “higher ed” plan must include trades and apprenticeships. It shouldn’t be “college or bust”. But for those who are qualified and ready, college should be affordable. Anyway, we have to start somewhere, and free community college would cover both trades/practical skills and preparation for 4-year, but it can’t be the be-all/end-all, in part because it’s not a practical solution for many lower&middle class high achieving students.

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Not all college or post-secondary education is aimed at BA/BS degrees, since many students attend college (often community college) for specific course work, certification, or AA/AS degrees that employers now expect entry level employees to have learned at their own expense (rather than hiring “raw material” and doing on-the-job training).

Also, most college majors do not require differential equations or organic chemistry.

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True, but a lot of college majors are of zero value to employers, after you strip out the signaling value of being of higher than average intelligence. And the signaling value gets less and less, the higher the percentage of the population gets a degree.

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Not everyone will take advantage of free college. And those who do are not all going to finish. But they will all have that opportunity

That money is the impediment to college courses is problematic to me. I’m not taking about paying for sleep away college, state flagships or private colleges. In fact, I’d fund this by taking federal and state funds from the private schools.

297

Looks like you are still assuming that “college” necessarily leads to a BA/BS degree, even though large numbers of students attend college for purposes and course work that do not lead to a BA/BS degree. The discussion about public college affordability does include such programs and students.

Also, if the limitation on attending and graduation college is based more on money (usually parental) rather than one’s own academic skills, that suggests a suboptimal allocation of college among potential students. I.e. a BA/BS degree may be a strong signal of sufficient parental financial support, in addition to enough academic strength to complete college.

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It is far worse than that. My son is a peer tutor in math. One of the students he helps couldn’t mentally divide 45 by 5. So she used a calculator and ended up with 7! And this is in a high school where the median student scores above the 90th percentile on the SAT.

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I’d get corporate buy-in. Underwriting student work. Offering work opps. Etc.
Or have a program for x kids. What, start with 1000 across the country? Watch them, provide custom academic and social support, and more.

One issue is so many colleges just let them in and leave them at the gate. The elites are generally the best at proactive academic support- mentoring. They can look for the ability to self advocate which goes beyond simple remedial.

Thing is, when one’s given opportunity and succeeds, there are dozens (if not thousands) of others they then go on to influence. Many of the groups that do provide guidance to high schoolers are themselves the products of opportunities.

But this isn’t just free college. It includes the rest they need to succeed in life.

No, this isn’t about difficult stem classes. But equally, nor is it fair to state some majors are of no value to employers. If the skills are developed, there are many roles to fill.

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… to students who probably are those least likely to need it (compared to college students overall), given how selective they are (both in terms of actual academic and other superstars and those whose connections provide a strong safety net even if they falter after their previous “ordinary excellent” high school record).