But is the “abysmal preparation” of high school graduates worse now than a generation or few ago, when employers were more willing to hire high school graduates and give them on-the-job training (versus expecting them to have been educated and trained at their own expense now)?
“The first question should be why is college so expensive? Could it be provided at a cheaper cost?”
Because it is so labor intensive. Perhaps when instructional AI improves, part of the process can be just as good at a lower cost.
@vonlost Exactly. And I thought this by @Mwfan1921 earlier in the thread put it well.
Eventually “education” will be just like Trinity learning how to operate a V-212 helicopter, and that will be that.
I agree with @momofsenior1 and @socaldad2002 that the US could do a much better job preparing kids in high school for something other than college when they graduate. We do a very poor job with vocational education in this country. KIds need to know that vocational education is an option and that they don’t have to go to college to make something of themselves. When your entire system directs kids to get a college degree or else, you’re going to wind up with kids in college who really shouldn’t be there at all.
Of course, in Europe, kids are tracked very early, and this can result in some late bloomers getting put on a technical or vocational track, when they really should be in a classical high school and go on to University. We have family friends who are fighting this right now with their youngest daughter.
I do have a German friend tracked into vocational, who decided in his mid 20s to regroup and do the academic path. Took him years to qualify.
Kids who aren’t prepared for freshman year really shouldn’t be thinking they are. But the collective sentiment is college for all. There should be a 13th grade for those not ready.
“But is the “abysmal preparation” of high school graduates worse now than a generation or few ago, when employers were more willing to hire high school graduates and give them on-the-job training (versus expecting them to have been educated and trained at their own expense now)?”
Yes. My in-laws had HS diplomas; they were voracious readers, competent mathematically, read three newspapers daily, could write a grammatical letter, etc. None of their friends had attended college but either showed up in the workforce after a stint in the military “ready to be trained”, or just graduated from HS, found a job, and progressed from their.
What kind of on the job training can you give a HS graduate who is reading at a 6th grade level? There is tons of federal, state and private money right now being thrown at retraining unemployed, displaced workers and unemployed youths who have never gotten that first rung on the ladder. It is not a coincidence that large numbers of them end up in food service and as LPN’s. If there was a magic wand which could turn them into big data analysts, or advanced manufacturing technicians, or cyber-security experts (all areas experiencing a labor shortage right now), believe me- it would be happening. You’ve got the coding academies which have some successes and a lot of failures, but no large scale, successful, replicable initiatives to talk about.
Corporate America spends hundreds of millions of dollars on training. The Military spends hundreds of millions of dollars on training. Neither sector is set up to teach basic literacy.
Your anecdotal small sample of in-laws may not be representative of high school graduates back in the “good old days”. What I remember from high school decades ago was that there was a substantial cohort who was only concerned about minimally passing (D grades) enough courses to graduate.
While the few honors and AP courses did not have these students, there were many courses that did, such as non-AP US history and civics, regular English, biology, social science electives, drafting, etc… Let’s just say that they were unlikely to be voracious readers with high mathematical competency who could write a grammatical letter.
Public education up to high school is in a pretty bad state. Which, combined with the availability of college grads holding not-so-in-demand degrees, may be a cause of more and more jobs requiring a college degrees (ie some college degrees are the new high school degree). So, what should we do? Free college for all! Got it.
And I remember the non academic types in my hs tracked over to the VoTech. There, they trained. I think the image of the kindly guy training some cold kid is at least part myth.
Again, now kids are told a college degree is a magic bullet. Then they get into the vortex of paying more than they can afford. If these will end up in admin, blue collar or no collar jobs, is that fair? The right track?
There’s also a huge push to do college right after hs. Why not later, for those who need to grow?
The responsibility of the society is to make sure that everyone who is a good student has access to an affordable college. Public colleges should have free attendance slots subsidized by the federal government. Accept students by major based on SAT/AP scores and offer them free or “meet full need” public education.
I am saying this as an immigrant who attended college back home for free and a parent of a child who attended Rutgers-NB for free. In his admission year Rutgers-NB had 90 free spots.
To me Rutgers looked much better than the college I attended and commuted to on a city bus for 5.5 years.
The 'free college for everyone" crowd should really focus their attention on primary education. US HS graduation rate is below some 3rd world countries.
“make sure that everyone who is a good student has access to an affordable college.” I fundamentally disagree. After college, not all kids go on to secure, lucrative careers. Just going to any college that accepts you with s minimum bar isn’t providing the safety net some think.
Looks like reading scores for 12th grade are basically the same as 1992, not sure if there’s comparable data going back further. 12th grade math same performance as 2005.
See reading data starting on page 96 (136 on the pdf), math p115 (p 155 pdf) on this report https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018144.pdf
I agree lower performing kids used to be tracked (but not as formally or as early as in Germany for example) for vocational jobs, some of which required apprenticeships or an associate’s degree. Those same jobs today pay livable wages: plumber, electrician, various healthcare techs (mammography, ultrasound, CT scan, etc.) and more. There is a terrible shortage of RNs in many geographies, and working as an RN requires only an Associates degree as well.
And what about the huge number of students who aren’t low income and can’t afford to pay for all this themselves? They don’t qualify for Pell now but do take the loans, do work study, save their money for years to go to college.
And there’d be a class system a lot more noticeable than now. If schools where forced to accept the Pell/loan to cover the room and board, a set fee, the room and board would deteriorate. The poor students living in low income housing and eating gruel while the rich students are getting the climbing walls and ice skating rinks their optional student fees and eating at off campus places? Living in modern suites with kitchenettes and free laundry?
Most developed countries have good vocational/apprenticeship opportunities. Our country could be better in that area
+1 for the Matrix reference.
@gallentjill some of these students who live at home while attending college might be helping support their family…
My daughter will enter UCLA this fall and she and I are thrilled to pieces. I am a single mom and have prepared for these expenses my whole life and know that most of her friends would give their left arm to have her slot at UCLA. I don’t want them to change anything. I don’t want her warehoused in prison like situation only focused on classes and study. College is a lot more then just classes and studying. I want her to develop life skills, meet people who she may know for the rest of her life, have access to services if she needs them and learn to make the most of the resources around her. These next four years will be the most important in her life and I want her to experience everything. Is it expensive to run a world class university, of course. I know I have to pay for transportation for disabled students, alcohol support programs for students with substance abuse issues, counselors for students who need help during finals, recreation programs, special guest lecturers and events, convocations and graduations,
Were there other options that were more cost efficient. Of course! We could be very cost effective and take advantage of other public education options, go to one of the excellent local community colleges for two years and live at home and work and easily transferred to her choice of college after, and if it was only about classes and grades and a diploma that might be what we would do. There were also excellent choices outside of our state. Through the WUE there are availability at other state institutions that want more students.
There are ways in this country to get a great college education reasonably. People share this on CC every day. There is a balance, if everything is free, then those who don’t want to go have to pay for others, if it is too expensive, then it is unattainable. There are options for everyone if you look hard enough
^ the California model (with excellent need based aid, a three tiered model, CC’s that offer excellent academic choices and are located throughout the state) is excellent. It is also rather unique. Virginia, Wisconsin, and Florida also do a good job. But many states can only dream of having a system that approaches the California system.
Without going to the extremes such as Pennsylvania and Illinois, look at Arizona, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire…
Arizona and Mississippi and the others have schools available for its residents at all price levels.
I really don’t think there is a lack of schools for students to go to but a lack of schools they want to go to that will accept them. Even in PA, the students can afford the schools as long as they pick West Chester or Slippery Rock and not Penn State. In Colorado, the students can go to CU Boulder for $30k per year COA, or they can go to Northern Colorado or Mesa State or UCCS for a lot less.
Arizona is kind of an interesting case. About 80% of the state population lives in the Phoenix or Tucson metro areas, so that they are likely to be in commuting range of ASU or UA respectively. Neither of the two flagship-level campuses is very selective, and ASU’s NPC suggests that an EFC = $0 student living with parents not getting merit scholarships will see a net price of about $9,000 (i.e. can be covered with direct loan plus part time work; those getting merit scholarships may find on-campus living to be affordable even at EFC = $0).
So that means that most of the population has access to a flagship-level university (as opposed to a non-flagship campus with more limited academic programs) that is affordable, at least if one can continue living with parents. However, the situation for the remaining 20% of the population is not as good. Some live near NAU, but others may have more limited options if they are unable to afford living on campus (including by merit scholarships).
But that is different from the case of some other states, where a much smaller percentage of the population is in commuting range of flagship-level state universities, so that attending the flagship requires being able to afford living expenses (in addition to tuition). In states where students from low income families find neither need-based FA nor merit scholarships, that can shut them out of attending the flagship even if highly academically qualified. Also note that when it is merit scholarship based, that means that most students from poor families effectively need to meet a higher academic standard than students from wealthy families in order to attend the flagship.