Geez, I feel like I need to apologize on behalf of all guidance counselors for all the crappy ones out there.
Refusing to call because she can’t advocate for one student over the rest? Ridiculous! My job is to passionately advocate for EACH student - which isn’t hard to do, as each is completely individual.
And yes, the waitlist schools do want to hear from the kids…but having the counselor call can only help. I did this for a student last year and learned that the school was likely going to reject him for consistently terrible math grades. I had a lovely conversation with the admissions rep from our area and reminded her of this boy’s dyscalculia and dysgraphia, and pointed out that he isn’t the type to struggle and fail: he’s the type to struggle, get help, and persevere!
“As for counselor - I was wondering about her picking up the phone. I thought advocacy was absolutely done in this business. I also thought schools have relationships with colleges (we are at a major high school that churns out kids to these schools). Officially, I’ve received mixed messages on that.”
College counselors definitely can and do make calls but I do think it is too early. In a week or so you will know the outcome of all decisions and can sit down as a family and with college counseling to strategize if needed. At that time, it would be the right time to have your school’s counseling office make phone calls to waitlisted schools. If your daughter does wind up shut out from all, yes, do get the head of the college counseling office involved. Don’t leave it up to your daughter’s assigned counselor. It is at that time, once you all know what you are facing, that the message can be sent to the waitlisted schools that if an offer was made, you would accept. That carries the weight a waitlisted school wants to hear.
As far as safeties, my kids’ school preferred to use the term “likely” instead of “safety” because absent a few schools that make decisions purely on gpa/test score cutoffs, there really aren’t guarantees.
I do think the Scottish universities are great and they make decisions that are more stats driven, less holistic but the downsides are extremely limited financial aid and much less flexibility in exploring different majors.
Sometimes errors can be made in defining what is a reach/match/safety, especially for an unhooked female and especially for private schools. Naviance data is a few years old and the admissions landscape for many colleges has become more competitive in those few years so doesn’t always paint the most accurate picture. Nor do you see a breakdown of students who get in because of hooks or other characteristics unique to their applications.
As far as the waitlists for her safeties thus far I do wonder, as others have mentioned, if those schools value the showing of “demonstrated interest” and whether your daughter sufficiently showed that throughout the process and in her application.
I hope the coming week brings some good news for your family.
Thanks, doschicos. I was hoping for advocacy BEFORE denials happen - in the event they can be avoided. Do those conversations not happen? As for hook, she is a committed pre-professional level dancer dancing 20+ hours per week. Is that a hook at a selective school? Schools like Princeton, Duke, etc have dance minors and arts centers and it is somewhat rare to find a high level dancer who is also high level academically. We thought that was her hook and that selective schools would need dancers for their programs. . .
I wonder if your daughter is at the same school/district in IL that my son attended. Our experience with the whole GC college process was there were a select number of kids that received the help, advocacy, etc. from the GC and the rest were kind of left on their own. When those not in the select group asked for help/advice it was limited at best. In looking at the experience of students we have known during our affiliation with the school is those not in the select group were pointed to OOS Big Ten schools if they were top 10% of the class (although the school does not rank), Alabama if they were not able to be full pay Big Ten, and all others were pointed to the local community college. Those in the selected group (determined as near as I could tell by the explore exam in 8th grade) were pushed to apply to true reach schools, UIUC as the match school, and BigTen/Alabama as safety schools. There was very little discussion around smaller LACs and similar, unless someone was an athlete in which case any school the student could compete at became a high priority because athletes continuing their career in college (regardless of level) is highly celebrated by the high school.
I would not panic just yet; you have yet to hear from many schools. Have your daughter follow up with some indication of interest where she is waitlisted, given that the GC seems reluctant to advocate.
I know a high stats girl last year who was waitlisted or denied from nearly every private where she applied. She was very upset as many were attainable low reaches. She was then accepted to an Ivy and that’s where she went. So don’t give up hope!
Did your daughter apply for a competitive major like engineering or CS? That can skew admissions results.
“Thanks, doschicos. I was hoping for advocacy BEFORE denials happen - in the event they can be avoided. Do those conversations not happen?”
My understanding is that, no, they don’t. It’s likely others from your daughter’s school have applied to schools on her list as well. They can’t rightly advocate for one over others. In a way, the counselor has already advocated for your child through their writeup of her as part of her application. Sometimes an admissions rep from a college will proactively call or email and inquire with more questions but that is a very different scenario than having a college counselor call up and advocate for only one student of many.
“As for hook, she is a committed pre-professional level dancer dancing 20+ hours per week. Is that a hook at a selective school? Schools like Princeton, Duke, etc have dance minors and arts centers and it is somewhat rare to find a high level dancer who is also high level academically.”
Actually, I don’t think it is rare for pre-pro dancing and strong academics to go hand in hand. Having lived in that world for awhile, it seems very common actually. Dancers know discipline and that often carries over to their studies as well. Did your daughter contact the heads of the ballet programs, meet with them, audition or send in videos of her work and a dance resume? If so, what kind of feedback did she get from them?
Dance is not a hook at all. In fact, it often keeps kids from other ECs, which can in turn make admission more difficult. I think your GC gave poor advice. But wait until all the results are in.
Then if she has no acceptances, hit the waitlist hard. Assure her top choice from those that she will attend if accepted. Ask the head of your GC office to call as well. Id ask them to do it personally, as your actual GC seems to have a limited grasp of how to advocate effectively with colleges for her student.
I don't think selective schools like that go out of their way much to get dancers for their programs. Enough kids have dance ECs -- often quite serious dance ECs -- to feed the modest needs of those programs without specifically recruiting them. That's not to say that being a great dancer isn't a potential hook . . . but I think you would need to be truly a great dancer.
One of the few kids I have known who actually turned down a Harvard acceptance to go somewhere other than Yale, Stanford, or MIT was a gifted male ballet dancer who was also an academic high performer and a legacy. He went to the dance conservatory at Indiana University, and after a year there was hired by a national ballet company, where he subsequently spent many years as a principal. (After he retired as a dancer, he finished college at a different Ivy League university, then got a PhD in linguistics.) Note that this was a long time ago – he was applying to college in 2002 or 2003, and he might not have been accepted there under today’s standards. Anyway, I’m sure his dancing was part of what made him special, but even then no one thought it was a gigantic hook, notwithstanding that he was at a very high level.
I do think it's a lot easier for GC's to advocate to get someone off a waitlist than to try to intervene now -- at the very last minute, and probably at most colleges a few days past the very last minute -- especially at a highly selective school. One of the crucial elements of the narrative in the situation you fear is that here is a great kid who through bad luck or some trivial error is facing a very unfair outcome, and the OP's daughter isn't in that situation yet. (Not many kids will ever be in that situation. In general, the system works pretty well for good students.) Another crucial element, I think, is that the GC has to be able to say, if you accept her she will enroll. She can't say that to 10 different colleges; she can't say that to two different colleges. And it wouldn't make a meaningful difference at Princeton or, probably, Duke. They already know that most of the kids they accept will come. It's more effective farther down the food chain, at the colleges that should have been safeties for the daughter in the first place.
ia parent, I don’t think it is the same SD given what you described. Not much Alabama at our school as far as I’m aware and lots of LAC’s.
I don’t think she opted for a competitive major. At some schools, she opted for undeclared. At others, biology or chemistry.
As for dance, she is not a ballerina but jazz/modern. We only met with the dance professor at the ED to which we were denied. That professor loved her. Said she was good enough to be a professional dancer already and then suggested she double major in dance and science to help her chance to get in (which did not help). After that, we only submitted arts supplements to schools that would accept them. No other outreach, meetings or feedback. Unfortunately, if committed dance is not a hook, then that is clearly a big problem for her.
My comment about the academics is based on my daughter’s company team over the years. At least 50% of the girls want to go to Pointe Park and/or major in dance at a state school. Very few look to LAC’s that we’ve seen. She is unusual in not wanting to major in dance from her group but clearly I have limited experience and it is becoming more apparent that there was a lot we didn’t know despite thinking we were really well prepared:(
Don’t panic. Remember, post May 1, the list of colleges and universities with open spots is published, and each year, surprisingly great schools missed their quotas and avidly seek students like your kid.
Is HS’s assigned CC a new/young advisor? If so, I’d eventually lob a call to head-counselor, not to complain, but to politely but firmly ask for intervention at school your daughter most preferred that’s also a financial match/safety. If you need financial aid, understand that requirement (in it’s +85% rank) when naming that school in your plea.
Hopefully it all comes together before May 1, but after May 1 there’s another selection process to consider.
Dance could give a little bit of an edge at SOME schools, just like excellence would in any form of art, but I wouldn’t call it a hook unless your child was applying to a school known for her form of dance, something that the school valued highly. An example would be Texas Christian University or Butler for ballet dancers.
" at the very last minute, and probably at most colleges a few days past the very last minute "
I think that is important to note. Most decisions are baked at this point given it is 3/22. As frustrating and stressful as it is, all you can do at this point is wait out the coming week, hope for the best, and reconvene once decisions are all in.
There are many knowledgable posters here. When you are ready to share more details - perhaps when the rest of the decisions are out - I’m sure the collective CC posters can be helpful.
In the meantime, we will all route for your daughter and send good vibes her way for some acceptances.
@3littlebirds Our D21 is in a preprofessional ballet company and knows lots of good students who are dancers. I think the problem is that, if you spend a lot of time dancing, schools wonder why you aren’t entering a program to major in dance. If you are applying to schools that do not have a strong dance EC option then what is your daughter bringing to the school? Do those troupe on campus do the same kind of dance as your daughter? If she’s a ballerina, there aren’t many colleges with strong ballet options unless you are majoring in dance. Sometimes, non-majors can’t get into class and are not invited to be in productions.
I’m thinking through this with our S19 who is an artist but won’t major in art. Why would the colleges care about all of his art ECs if he’s not bringing that talent to their scchool? How else can he use it at the colleges to contribute to their community? He will be sure to answer those questions in his apps.
For our freshman ballerina, she is also a strong writer. She will be working on the school newspaper and entering writing contests. She has other ECs that she can make work with her 25 hour-plus ballet schedule. Dancing that much definitely shows commitment and that’s good. But schools want to know what you will do on their campus.
So…if your D spent almost all of her time dancing and the dance scene on these campuses only includes the kids majoring in dance, then this might be part of the problem.
I sure hope that she’s dancing because she has a passion and not to use as a hook.
I don’t think it’s helpful to dissect these admissions decisions to this degree. It’s ALL speculation, and it’s all moot.
What will be will be in 10 days or less. Que sera sera.
I think it’s helpful to investigate alternatives in case she is shut out on April 1. Maybe file an easy application to a sure admit for the purposes of a good night sleep so that you both know that she has a decent place to go, (If I recall correctly, Truman and Iowa State auto-admit based on stats).
If there are waitlists that she wants to stay on, it’s helpful to write letters to the waitlist schools.
If she needs to apply to more schools after April 1 or after the May list comes out, so be it.
“I think the problem is that, if you spend a lot of time dancing, schools wonder why you aren’t entering a program to major in dance.”
I agree. When applying for dance, having strong academics seems to provide a boost at many schools, particular if they don’t have truly top dance programs (academics are a lot less relevant at Butler, Julliard, Indiana, etc.). One reason may be that going to an in person audition is a definite sign of interest and you can definitely stand out in a set of potential dance candidates who may have lower grades/scores compared to some other majors. Hence D18 has had very good results from this approach at UT Austin, UCSB, UCI, etc. (including Regents scholarships and significant merit aid at Austin).
But her dance friends (all girls) who didn’t want to study dance in college haven’t done so well either this year or in the last few years. And while D18 did get into UCLA as an academic backup (where she didn’t apply for a dance major, but her grades/scores are comparable to or above many other students admitted from her school), I don’t think the same will happen with Princeton.
I would add that D18 has found that her experience teaching dance seems to be of far more interest to potential colleges (e.g. in interviews) than anything else she’s done. Something to think about if your daughter considers what she might do during a year off.
I don’t think dance will be a hook…unless the school needs dancers for some reason. I can’t imagine that is the case for most schools.
I will say…your daughter’s commitment to her dance EC WILL stand out…because it’s good to see commitment. And clearly, dance at this level does take that.
Many…MANY students applying to elite schools also are good in some form of the arts…music, art, dance, drama. That’s why many of these schools have strong EC programs at the college level (Yale for example has amazing ECs for the arts).
But at this point…you are still awaiting acceptances. And as I said earlier…it’s impossible to speculate on your kiddo’s chances without knowing the colleges. Her stats
are really quite good…but so are most of the applicants to many of the elite schools…certainly the Ivies SM, etc. And that’s the same for some public universities…UVA, UMich, UNC CH for OOS students.
The year D1 applied to Princeton they just received a major donation to build a performing arts center. The stipulation was for Princeton to start admitting more students with performing arts background. We were not aware of that or she would have applied ED or EA (I don’t remember what they had back then), but instead she used her ED card on Columbia (guess how many dancers they get). I don’t know if Princeton still favors students with performing arts background.
Not true. Andison was waitlisted and subsequently denied admission in his first application round.
He really didn’t have a true safety but was an extremely well qualified applicant. Many were stunned when he didn’t get accepted the first time around.
BUT he regrouped, and did a very meaningful gap year. He applied for,the following year…and while he didn’t have any really really slam dunks on his application list, he had added his gap year activities to his application…which made him an even stronger applicant.
He matriculated at MIT…where he got his bachelors…and maybe an dbanced degree as well. Clearly…he was a strong student…even the first time around.
Oh…and he had multiple acceptances the second time…despite not having a clear safety.