How Strong - Music EC

nngmm · July 1, 2009, 1:30pm

Of course not. But a recommendation from the music department will make much more impact on the admissions outcome than just having your musical accomplishments listed on the application. Passion and focus can be demonstrated in many ways (including through musical ECs), but if you are not sending an audition, your musical talent will not be evaluated (even if you will get the brownie points for passion and focus).

thumper1 · July 1, 2009, 1:33pm

Not always true. DD had lessons at two of the five schools to which she applied. She auditioned NO WHERE. She did NOT have lessons at the other three schools. Two of those schools where she did NOT have a lesson had a handwritten note on her letter of acceptance noting her music accomplishments (which were mighty plentiful and were noted on her application).

OdysseyTigger · July 1, 2009, 1:35pm

“I know that at Stanford, at least until 2 or so years ago, the auditions were rated on 1-6 scale by the faculty. Those who scored 1-3 were “recommended”. Of course, this did not guarantee admission. But it moved your file from a general pile of thousands into a much smaller pile of files of students whom someone in the university actually wants. That is a HUGE leg up at a highly selective school.”

I’m sure that Stamford, (like Harvard and Yale), receives thousands of CD’s every year. Most of those CD’s will likely grade out in the 4,5,6 range and for those students it does not seem unreasonable to assume that the CD was a detriment to the overall application - (as this may appear to designate them as students whom someone in the university actually does not want). As mentioned elsewhere - Yale apparently states this explicitly while others do so implicitly.

nngmm · July 1, 2009, 1:40pm

Standford used to explicitly say that sending music or art supplement can only help you. Maybe this did generate A LOT of junk sent in, so in the last few years they started requiring a recommendation from the mentor in the field of your talent (i.e. music or art teacher), to get some quality assurance from someone other then the applicant…

SDMomof3 · July 1, 2009, 1:48pm

Does anyone have any idea about what schools think about students who do not play traditional orchestra or band instruments – i.e. electric guitar, bass guitar? My S plays multiple instruments, but his passion is guitar. He composes his own songs (both music and lyrics), records the bass track, the guitar tracks, and voice track, and then puts them together. He jams with a couple of bands, but no formal gigs right now (its hard when none of the kids drive!).

Most of his compositions are rock. Not really what schools are looking for! (although he can play jazz and has played bass in a jazz band ). Is it worth sending in a CD with original songs or are kids who play in rock bands a dime a dozen?

OdysseyTigger · July 1, 2009, 1:53pm

“I can’t “prove” you wrong, but I am pretty sure that none of my children are anywhere near conservatory quality, All-State or not… And the recording that my kid made was on a cheap prehistoric tape recorder, not in a CD recording studio. Based on the correspondence that followed, the music faculty liked it anyway…”

Perhaps you are being a bit of a harsh grader where your children are concerned? :)

In any event, my understanding - (however arrived at - so take with as many grains of salt as you please) - is that the vast majority of CD’s submitted in the application process do not make a positive impression and those submitted that “the faculty liked” are few and far between.

So … congratulations to your kids.

Allmusic · July 1, 2009, 2:30pm

Buyer beware: even if the faculty “liked” the recording, and made all kinds of promises about types of ensembles and opportunities, it’s best to take some of this info with a grain of salt, unless it can be verified. We know a talented (not top conservatory, but probably music school in university quality student) young woman, who had played in a top youth orchestra; she was told that there would be many like minded musicians for chamber work at her non-HYP Ivy. Unfortunately, she found the general level of musicianship sadly lacking, despite what she had been told in advance by the orchestra director.

So, while her CD probably helped get her in (the rest of her grades/scores were just above the 50th%), the musicianship was not high enough at this school anyway. This is not the first time I have heard of this scenario.

vicariousparent · July 1, 2009, 2:40pm

Allmusic: Your warning is a good one and one that can be generalized to other aspects of the college search process. Quality (in academics and in extra-curriculars) is not uniformly high in all departments in even the most reputable universities/colleges.

On the other hand, one should also not fall into the trap of “I don’t want to join any club that would take me as a member”.

Hat · July 1, 2009, 2:59pm

Post #54 - vicariousparent. I disagreee about the usefulness of CDs at HYP. I think that at Harvard, my son’s CD helped his application. Academically he was a “fit” in the middle 50% of their acceptance profile for applicants (along with about 25,000 others) and most of his ECs were music related. He was in All-state choir, but did not even get past the first round in the two national singing competitions that he entered. He was admitted to and did attend Tanglewood. He was the male lead in his high school musical senior year. He applied to two top-tier conservatories, was rejected by one and wait-listed by the other. He was accepted to three top-tier university music performance programs. I provide these to give you some idea of his musical abilities. He had some other ECs (Boy Scouts and a 2nd Degree Black Belt), but did not cure cancer or build a dam in South America by hand. He did write two very good essays - one on music and the other on linguistics. He probably also had two good rec letters from his teachers.

Did the CD help to distinguish him from the rest of the thousands of appliants? As I mentioned before, the music director at Harvard indicated to my son that he was familiar with his voice when he auditioned for the Harvard choirs. This could only have come from his CD. Was it the reason he got into Harvard? No, but I think it helped.

DadofB_amp_G · July 1, 2009, 3:09pm

Hat-

Exactly our experience - three or four notches down the prestige ladder…

ellemenope · July 1, 2009, 3:14pm

Anecdotal thoughts:

I would send a CD to H, but not to Y. No info about P.

MIT (at least back in the days of the former admissions director who emphasized how the admissions committe wanted to know the real you) seemed favorably open to music CDs. Don’t know about the new regime.

Stanford makes submitting a music CD difficult–they have a very, very early deadline–and haven’t shown much excitement about getting something from you. Unless you just happen to have something ready to go, I’d move on. Stanford was one that said that they spent an average of 20 minutes with each application, I think it was. Yikes!

When they say 10 minutes, keep it to ten. Play excerpts not whole pieces. Play pieces that show different styles. Remember that the listener may not even listen to all 10 of your minutes.

vicariousparent · July 1, 2009, 3:22pm

Hat: Thank you for that specific feedback. Looks like my D is around the same level as your son was- All-state choir, Interlochen, school musical, etc. Got past the first round of the classical singer competition last year but not this year. Will do the NFAA, won’t apply to conservatories (though she’s been told she would be competitive) because she doesn’t want to miss out on a liberal arts education.

Still not convinced though that it would be such a great idea for her. I hope you don’t take it the wrong way, but as you know good male voices (esp tenors) are much rarer and more desired than sopranos like her. If she were a mezzo with a rich voice, maybe, but a soprano?

But your post has made me reconsider. I’m going to think about it again in the fall, maybe get an independent opinion on her recording. Don’t want to sell her short. The recording will already be there…she is planning to send in an entry for the NFAA. As long as it won’t hurt, we may send something anyway.

Edit: LMNOP: That’s exactly what I was thinking…H might value a musician slightly more than Y. We might send in her SCEA app to Y without the supplement, and then if she is deferred, send the supplement.

Note to OP: Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit, but hope you’re finding this discussion useful too.

OdysseyTigger · July 1, 2009, 3:29pm

Allmusic

Depends what you are buying. :)

Most musicians I know who go the Ivy/top LAC route are looking to leverage their music into a better education/college acceptance, not focus on their music. Maybe some try to have it both ways (for example with Jazz at Princeton or Columbia or maybe with the joint Julliard or NEC programs) but most not so. So most I think know what they are getting into.

thumper1 · July 1, 2009, 4:14pm

Because the music folks at the school she is attending AND the other school where she auditioned TOLD us that they had absolutely NO LEVERAGE with admissions, but they would be delighted to have her in their orchestra IF she was accepted to the school.

Two of the other schools were safeties. The fifth was a reach where she did NOT get accepted.

condor30 · July 1, 2009, 4:29pm

is there any way of knowing which schools may have music departments that may have pull with admissions? would this possibly be schools with standout music programs such as St. Olaf, university of north texas, etc.?

another question…is there such a thing as any type of actual “recruiting” much like sports recruiting…that ever does go on with any colleges at any level. the reason i ask is because i’d heard that a local girl, a member on the school drumline, was being sought after by a oos public for their drumline…a big 12 school . does this happen? just kind of curious. do music departments recruit ?

seems to me like i read somewhere of a talented musician (instrumentalist) who garnered a full ride…oos private, i think. is this rare?

Allmusic · July 1, 2009, 4:41pm

OdysseyT, absolutely, and this student I described did not choose to be a music major either, but was hoping to maintain her music involvement at a high level in college as an EC. That didn’t happen. I have heard this from a number of kids, who had no intention of studying music (even after using the CD to help with admissions), but have been disappointed by the overall level of play of the other students. Not speaking about jazz at Columbia, of course! ;)

VP, if your daughter places well in NFAA, this will be very useful to her at all the schools, and would definitely indicate that including a supplemental CD would be to her benefit.

thumper1 · July 1, 2009, 4:47pm

Music students are not typically recruited in the same way as athletes.

Northstarmom · July 1, 2009, 6:39pm

Oberlin, Carlton have excellent music schools, and I’m guessing being very strong in music would help would admission.

violadad · July 1, 2009, 8:24pm

condor, defining conservatory level ability is beyond the scope of most parents, high school music teachers (with exceptions), guidance counselors, your neighbors or Uncle Joe.

orchestramom nailed it in her post #24. The best advice is objective professional assessment from a high level instructor, be it a conservatory or college level faculty, or professional musicians. A prior thread is here
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/458455-how-determine-your-childs-ability.html?highlight=ability[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/458455-how-determine-your-childs-ability.html?highlight=ability</a>

While the op is getting reasonable advice based on the question that was posed, it is not necessarily the complete picture. Northstarmom’s comment identifying Oberlin and Carleton as having excellent music schools requires clarification. The program at Carleton is a BA, non-audition based admit, as is the program at Oberlin College. They are music concentrations within a liberal arts based curriculum. Oberlin Conservatory is an audition based admit in a BM curriculum, within an attached (but seperate admissions process) conservatory. There is minimal crossover and commonality of coursework between the Oberlin BA & BM programs. Having said that, there is no stigma attached to the BA as opposed to the BM. It’s a function of what the student is attempting to achieve musically (or academically). To mention these two schools in the same sentence as comparable experiences is meaningless without presenting the entire picture.

There are nuances to music based admissions beyond the knowledge of a number of posters within this thread. If you have specific questions regarding program types, school selections, or general music degree discipline advice, I urge you to direct the questions here <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/</a>

To those who posed questions regarding supplements, here’s a few threads. Please do not send if the school specifically says not to. Follow any specific directions regards labeling, submission addressing, and deadlines and length of passages. Do not deviate from the recommended submission medium… if they specify CD, then do not send a videotape or DVD. Follow repertoire quidelines if applicable.

thumper1 · July 1, 2009, 8:25pm

I would have to defer to someone who is AT Oberlin…but I believe if you are applying to the college (not the conservatory) your music skills won’t matter that much. The conservatory at Oberlin has an abundance of very talented musicians. Oberlin’s ensembles are open to everyone who auditions, but that does not mean that all will be seated in the Conservatory ensembles.

How Strong - Music EC

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