<p>Violadad - thanks for linking to my earlier post. Someday I will learn how to do that. I posted that thread because I am a horrible judge of music and I didn’t want to put too much credence in my son’s music teacher’s praise (the only professional available to us). As it turns out, two of his students are currently on Broadway in major roles, so I guess he is a good judge of talent. I was also going to recommend to several of the posters that they look at the music-major subsection here on CC for more specific school recommendations. I spent a lot (too much my wife says) on that sub-site.</p>
<p>elemenope - I think I agree about Y, but my input is strictly anecdotal also. My son applied EA and sent in a CD. Unfortunately, the CD had been done in a professional studio and had been edited. That is a no-no and I felt that my son needed to point that out and offer to send them an unedited one. The rest of the schools received an unedited CD (recorded later). Would the unedited one have generated an acceptance rather than a rejection, I doubt it. HYP (and most of the top 10) are so idiosyncratic in there choices that it rarely comes down to one thing.</p>
<p>vicarious - My son also tried out for NFAA and he did not receive even an honorable mention. However, it was the worst recording session that I have ever seen - the lighting made him look like Herman Munster and the sound quality was just as good. He is a Tenor 1 and I recognize that that helps.</p>
<p>violadad…thanks for your post and for the links to the ability thread and the sub-forum. i will be sure to read the thread and visit the music-major sub-forum i appreciate your help and the assistance of others on cc too :)</p>
<p>I think DadofB&G’s post #55 is exactly right in regard to Williams and any other LAC that has an arts-focus. They *need * musicians to keep these multiple extracurricular groups populated.</p>
<p>Instructions for submitting supplementary materials from Williams website:</p>
<p>violadad, Thank you very much for the links. I read them through. They help my understanding. I also thank all posters here for important info and opinions.
BTW, I got an impression the reason why HPY have so many exceptionally talented musicians is that those students submitted their recordings and/or other evidences of their talent and those supplements have big influence on their acceptance as well as other kind of exceptional talent academic or non-academic among very high academic achievers. Correct?
Does it mean that applicants with perfect SAT score and GPA will be easily rejected without such evidence of their talent? It explains that mojority of applicants with very high SAT scores (above 2300) and GPA are rejected at HPY but less percentage but more lower scorers are accepted.</p>
<p>FiddlinEcon - Do not misconstrue my earlier posts (and those of others) regarding HYP. The arts supplement may be a “plus” to the application, but only in the most exceptional of musicians will it be a “big influence”. I would limit “big influence” to superstars. An arts supplement will not make up for poor grades or scores (poor being relative in the HYP field).</p>
<p>Assuming that you are talking HYP type academic statistics (2200 - 2400) SAT, High SAT II scores (BTW - 3 at Harvard, not two) and a GPA in the range of 3.8 to 4.0 UW what you want your ECs, and specifically your arts supplement, to do is separate you from the thousands of other applicants for a relatively few number of admitances. HYP receive thousands of applications from students with 4.0 UW GPAs and perfect or near perfect SAT II scores. The last I looked, H & Y claimed that the top 25% of the accepted class had 2400 SAT scores (presumably including superscores). That said, some of these perfect applicants did nothing other than study and from the view of the admissions department are not likely to do anything other than study at college. These schools want students who will contribute to the social atmosphere of the college and participate in the hundreds of student organizations on campus whether its music, sports, newspapers or political activisim. They don’t want drones.</p>
<p>And don’t forget the importance of the rest of the application. IMHO essays are probably more important than most ECs, recommendations and interviews probably less.</p>
<p>FiddlinEcon, I’ll agree with what Hat has summarized above and again warn that among the many components that comprise the “package” of an HYP class admit you will oft find a conservatory level ability among a good portion of the applicant pool. These students in general are the uber achievers, the type that seem to do everything well and music is just a part of that.</p>
<p>The edge comes from extraordinary ability, and the casting of the runes by the admissions committees is an unknown. There are school specific needs and balance in terms of make up, profile, and yes, orchestration and ensemble balance, instrument need. </p>
<p>The high profiles of past attendees, like Yo Yo Ma, and more recent examples such as David Aaron Carpenter at Princeton, Alisa Weilerstein at Columbia, Joe Lin at Harvard serve to compound confusion, but realize that these were all actively performing rising professionals prior to undergrad acceptance. Much like the presence of Jodie Foster at Yale, and the rumors of Emma Watson considering an Ivy or two, perhaps an artist talent constituted an “in”.</p>
<p>Yet there are others as well, not as prevalent in the public eye that have played professionally, held chairs in regional pro orchestras, bagged a national or international competition win or placement, appeared on “From the Top” among the applicant pools at these institutions. Allstate selection, a principal high school chair or play lead pales in comparison to the talent and experiences of a number of wannabes.</p>
<p>The edge may lie in possessing conservatory level talent among these schools, but is just one part of the package, a data point and nothing more. It is also instrument (including voice type) specific, based on each school’s current needs.</p>
<p>Okay, my original question is “how strong”.
Let me put it this way (I know the reality is much much more complicated, however)
Assume a simplified comprehesive points system for admission. (superstars may get 4800 of alpha here)
comprehesive points
=Ksat x SAT + Ksub x SATsub +Kes x ESSAY + Kec1 x EC1 + Kas x AS + Kre x REC + alpha
and assume all above elements are measured in the 200 - 800 scale like SAT. Here EC1 is EC other than art supplement, AS art supplemet (music in this thread). Then we may have different views on Kas and measurement of AS. From initial point let us assume no art supplement results 500 AS, Some people might say “conservatory quality” gets 750-800 AS but “state level” only 510 and poor one gets 400 (Ouch!) at top schools. Others might say “state level” gets 700 and even “above average” gets 600 with minimum 500 for most of colleges.
How about Kas? At some small LACs, Kas could be high as 1? Not that high?
At very selective colleges, Kas seems not so high and their measurement of AS is very different from those of other schools. Right?</p>
<p>"BTW, I got an impression the reason why HPY have so many exceptionally talented musicians is that those students submitted their recordings and/or other evidences of their talent and those supplements have big influence on their acceptance as well as other kind of exceptional talent academic or non-academic among very high academic achievers. Correct? "</p>
<p>Not at all. I used to be regional head of of the alumni interviewing committee for Harvard, and got to talk to Harvard admissions officers and administrators.</p>
<p>Music is the most common EC of Harvard applicants and students. My regional admissions officer (who was Asian-American) said that she thought that was because so many Asians were applying and accepted, and it’s typical for Asian and Asian-American students to have backgrounds in classical music. In most cases, the students with music backgrounds are accepted not because they happen to have music backgrounds, but because they have the stats plus other factors (which could be nonmusical ECs or living in an unrepresented state or having stellar ECs that aren’t related to music) that Harvard is looking for.</p>
<p>When it comes to Harvard, submitting a supplement isn’t going to help unless the supplement reflects something that is unusual in a good way or outstanding when compared to the rest of the applicants, many of whom have accomplishments that are excellent on their local level, but many be very ordinary when compared with Harvard applicants and students.</p>
<p>I’ll preface this to say that my comments have absolutely nothing to do with student who are seeking to major in music; only those who have an interest in staying connected to music via an EC in college.</p>
<p>You’re not going to get very far with an equation. My point has been that at smallish LAC’s, the demonstration of musical interest and ability can help an applicant. But that ability will really only help when the school admissions team is looking at similar applications and sees something extra in one of them - and that “something extra” could be music. It could be sports, too (for the non-recruited athlete), or community service, etc.</p>
<p>My experience has been that schools which encourage the submission of arts supplements actually look at and listen to them. And that music faculty can and will make recommendations to admissions concerning them. Williams, for example, goes out of its way to announce how many kids in its class have specific talents, including music.</p>
<p>It appears there are plenty of other schools that do not place a value on musical accomplishments, insofar as admissions are concern, so I guess it would make sense to ask specific schools’ admissions departments directly.</p>
<p>Hat, Violadad, thank you for clarification. I understand that.
Northstarmom, then my simplified formula will not work.
Do you think what is the most reason why 10% of not top score range (2100-2300) students are admitted at those schools? Mostly strength of their essays? Or other evidence of their personality or uniqueness that may attract adcom?</p>
<p>Fiddlin, I think you’re missing the bigger point here. All things being equal, your typical high scoring, high grades, fantastic kid who also has a mean tennis serve and is (pick one) a high level but not heading for Julliard musician, a kid who works 15+ hours a week at your local homeless shelter, an award winning published poet, has a possible but not likely chance of being admitted to Harvard. Things that can move that kid into the “more likely” category-- first generation to attend college from a disadvantaged background, URM (which is not Asian at Harvard), grew up on a farm in Montana, etc.</p>
<p>The likelihood that a strong essay or a unique personality will move the needle on your typical high scoring valedictorian at H is pretty low. The 10% of kids you refer to who aren’t super-scorers aren’t getting in because they are good musicians or write a good essay or have nice personalities… these kids are children of US Senators, fourth generation legacies at H with a library or building that bears their last name, or Intel winners who took three buses and a subway to get to the lab every day to do their research.</p>
<p>This isn’t to discourage you or your kid, who sounds fantastic. But it is easy to look at your own child and to bask in his or her accomplishments, and to delude yourself into thinking that the statistics don’t apply to you. If 90% of the applicants at Harvard get rejected you’ve got to take the attitude that there are dozens of colleges out there that would love to accept your kid… so go focus on figuring out what those are, rather than spending time trying to game the Harvard admissions process.</p>
<p>Yes, H takes kids who are great but not “Isaac Stern great” with a violin. It could happen to your kid, or it might not. So go apply- it will cost you $100 bucks so why not. But spend some time exploring all those other great schools which would LOVE to have a kid like your son apply.</p>
<p>“Do you think what is the most reason why 10% of not top score range (2100-2300) students are admitted at those schools? Mostly strength of their essays? Or other evidence of their personality or uniqueness that may attract adcom?”</p>
<p>They are recruited athletes, have been homeless, are millionaire donors’ or celebrities’ kids or have some other rare factor that admissions officers want such as being from Idaho or being the top Latin student in the country. They don’t get in because they are an above average musician who sent in a CD.</p>
<p>When I first read your equation I was thinking “This person is nuts”. But then after reading your explanation it does seem to be a good approximation of the process. The key is that the default value you give for AS for those not sending in an arts supplement is 500 and that sending in a supplement can make that value go down or up. Another key is that the ‘k’ value is not really constant, but varies from college to college, and perhaps even within a college depending on the instrument, voice type, or other factor.</p>
<p>As an aside: If your son is as quantitative as you seem to be, MIT may be a good place for him.</p>
<p>Number of the accepted students with score range 2100-2300 is likely 30-40% of student body. blossom, Northstarmom, do you think all those admitted students in this category fall into your description?
blossom, I was just curious about the above fact. I think my S have MIT on his current list. If his chance is very low like you mention, I would like to give him best advice what to do.</p>
<p>“Number of the accepted students with score range 2100-2300 is likely 30-40% of student body. blossom, Northstarmom”</p>
<p>I think that they have something special and relatively rare that Harvard wants. Every student who gets accepted has something that Harvard wants. The chances of acceptance are less than 1 in 10. My thoughts are the best way to approach one’s application is to do one’s best, then assume one won’t get in because odds are that any individual student won’t get in. They need to fall in love with a school that’s likely to accept them. If they happen to get accepted by Harvard, they always can fall in love with Harvard. I think trying to game the system is likely to result in disappointment.</p>
<p>MIT also is a longshot for most applicants. Again, your S should do his best on his app while seeing it as a longshot, and falling in love with a school that’s likely to admit him.</p>
<p>MIT is one of very few top schools offering non-binding, non-restrictive EA. Your son should take advantage of that if his application is ready by the early deadline.</p>
<p>vicariousparent, thank you for responding to my equation. (And I am nuts actually :))
All the coefficients Kxx should vary by colleges. By instruments? I would rather take this evaluation things into matter of valuation of AS. If instrument X is relatively demanded, then evaluation of X players becomes relatively easier.
I put 500 for non-submission because 500 is representing “average” in SAT sense and if some relatively poor art submisson “hurts”, it can be described as lowering the score from “average”.<br>
But reading carefully what people with experience in top school admission say, my equation is too simplified. Should I revise AS to awbh x AS where awbh represents weight by race?</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I think I am not trying to game. (depends what you mean by “game”) One has to do best what she/he can do if she/he truly want to accomplish things. My position is that it must start from good objective observation of the subject and its environment. That’s all.</p>
i appreciate your help and the assistance of others on cc too :)</p>