@cbreeze: “What happens if she doesn’t make it and get stuck at a school she doesn’t like?”
That’s why fit matters. But something like “general public perception” should play a small role in fit, IMO, unless she needs the ego boost for some reason.
Many posters on these forums do seem to have a definition of “fit” that is mostly based on prestige, whether or not it really matters for their intended goals.
There is a location bias such that companies are more likely to recruit at nearby colleges, reducing various expenses (air fare, hotel, etc.). This is particularly true for smaller companies. This relates to why SJS gets a lot of SV companies recruiting at various on campus events. However, it’s not just San Jose State, colleges in CA, top 100, top 150, … that have notable recruiting. Nearly any large state school will have a large number of employers attending recruiting events, including some fortune 500 type companies or companies that are commonly thought of as desirable on this site. For example, the first college I checked was Arizona State. Skimming through the employer list at one of the Arizona State career events I see hundreds of organizations including Amazon, Ebay, Paypal, General Motors, the CIA, etc.
Note that certain majors at SJSU have gotten very selective. While some majors admit frosh with 2.5 GPA and 950 SAT, the CS major this year rejected applicants with 4.1 GPA and 1440 SAT score and similar credentials (GPA calculated by CSU method, admission is stats only formula).
“For example, for undergrad business WashU and UMich might have a little more sparkle than UVA and Cornell, but not by much.”
Actually, for undergrad b-school, Cornell, UMich, and UVa are all at that top tier just below Wharton. WashU is getting there (or may already be there). But it’s competitive admissions in to UVa’s b-school even after admission to UVa. Same with UMich’s if you weren’t a Ross pre-admit. Transfers in to WashU’s b-school is almost impossible now. And getting in to Cornell is tough in general."
@PurpleTitan - I don’t disagree with your assessment, but it’s based on research and high level knowledge of college rankings, etc. Which wasn’t quite my understanding of the question. My response was to the question of what the general public would think of different schools. I believe if we assume the general public is made up of people who are at least college-aware but haven’t yet done in-depth research and may only have out of date knowledge or knowledge based on what they read in generally read periodicals that UMich’s Ross will have huge name recognition because it’s not just good, it has a HUGE alum network that often touts it. WashU just got some well-deserved publicity this year when certain rankings named its undergrad business school #1, so people may remember that. Yes, UVA and Cornell are at the same level, but I’m not sure they’d have the same name recognition in the general public simply because they haven’t gotten publicity lately. But - I’m guessing and could be wrong. It has happened before.
Why does the general public’s perception matter? If you are applying to top grad programs for a PhD in Mechanical Engineering, every single decision-maker knows the quality of Missouri M&T’s undergrad. They guy at the dry cleaner down the street may not be able to spell “Missouri” but why is that at all relevant to anything? If you are applying for a job in the Contemporary Art department at Christie’s, do you care that someone at the grocery store thinks that Williams and Wesleyan and Wellesley and Whitman are all the same college? Everyone in the art world knows Williams.
This emphasis on “man in the street” strikes me as quite misplaced. I had a medical emergency this past year (a relatively common one) but was treated with a relatively uncommon type of surgery. You tell people “sorry I was out of pocket” with a vague reference to a medical thing- and if they ask what/when etc. they assume you had the procedure they know about- it was on House, it was on ER, it was on Gray’s Anatomy. When you explain that no- that’s no longer done, surgeons prefer XYZ, they actually get hostile, that I was not treated with what a television actor reading from a script would have done.
No thank you. I’m not interested in what the TV medical community thinks. I had a team of real doctors, I followed their advice, I’m fine, thanks for asking. Are you going to poll your friends before undergoing emergency surgery? No you are not. Do you care what the “people” think about your kids college choice? why?
You are absolutely right and this is what students need to understand. The problem is, they are judging themselves based on how they believe others will perceive them based on the selectivity of their school. If they get into a school with a low admit rate, they feel great. When they don’t, they feel ashamed and worse, they feel that everyone around them is suddenly looking down at them. It shouldn’t be this way. As adults, we can help them learn to see it differently. The idea that most people have no idea whether the school you attend is “elite” or not, can help ease that stigma so many kids are placing on themselves.
Another midwesterner here. I was looking at colleges in 1976. We applied to fewer colleges. Most people I knew applied to one college and few applied to more than 3 or 4. For one thing we had to apply to individual universities. There was not a “common application”. We thought more regionally. Few people considered driving several hours or flying. The cost of a plane ticket was about the same as today but the average income was considerably lower. We had heard of Harvard and Stanford but the universities we knew the best were because of the quality of their football or basketball team not their academics. I didn’t know there was a WashU until my oldest D was looking at universities 6 years ago. There were far fewer elite students. I graduated from HS with a 3.23 GPA and got a 25 on my SAT and was in the top 3rd in my class. The average ACT in my HS was a 21. I would have easily been accepted to tOSU and got into Miami of Ohio whose average ACT at the time was a 24 I think. Today I wouldn’t get into either one. Costs obviously were more reasonable. 4 years at a public university was about a third of my Dad’s engineering salary. Today it would be just about an entire years salary.
In my opinion the internet, the common app, and the USNWR rankings are the major contributors to students applying to so many schools. Secondary factors are cost, the decline in state funding, Advanced placement courses and grade inflation, the preparation for standardized tests (I took the ACT once. All my friends went to college and no one I knew considered taking it multiple times) and an increase in the number college seeking students. Ease of travel is greater today than when I was a HS graduate. The process when I went through I think was much more merit based and far less subjective. I’m glad I found this site because without it I would have had a bit of shock at the whole experience. Neither of my kids ended up at “elite” schools but they are both having great outcomes. Glad I’m done with the selection process though.
The comment that there are more “elite” students today is really intriguing and something I’ve been wondering about. How is that happening? I don’t remember anyone in my high school class getting straight A’s. Now its common place. Suddenly everyone is doing high school work in Jr. High and college work in high school. Did the students all get smarter? Is it grade inflation? Are they just being pushed so much harder? Its a little baffling to me.
@gallentjill, there’s grade inflation, the top students have achieved more, and a greater percentage of students are being pushed harder. All of those.
@PurpleTitan Can I just say that this makes me sad. These kids have no margin of error. When I was a kid, a few poor grades was acceptable. It was part of the learning process. You had a few tough teachers. You learned how to deal with a bit of adversity. Now each class, each EC, each quiz even is so fraught with importance. I fear we are growing a generation of kids who fear failure so much, they’ll break. Sorry for the rant.
Only if you let it fester. Remind them that difference makers come from all walks of life. Throw out the cookie cutter and let your kids freestyle a bit. It’s important to instill a good work ethic in your children, but it does far more harm than good to make them feel like they need to be perfect. Kids need to be able to fail and pick themselves up, and no one should go to pieces over a test or a quiz grade. Make sure they know we all fail at times. Sometimes, they just need to hear us say it’s okay.
It’s 2 pm. I’m working from home today. From my office window I see half the HS kids in my neighborhood hanging out (it’s sunny- the first nice day in forever), talking on their phones, drinking out of mammoth Starbucks and Big Gulp cups, listening to music.
If they are stressed out OR over-programmed OR stuck in the chem lab OR busy studying, that would be news to their parents.
I think this over-stressed meme is very local and/or very tied to the affluence of a community. I know a lot of the kids in my neighborhood- the school day is insanely short which allows them to get jobs at the mall, Target, Sonic, or whatever (just like I did when I was in HS); they hang out with their friends; some of them are aiming for the flagship U and others want to graduate from the Paul Mitchell hair styling school so they can work on Beyonce’s hair and become a U Tube star (I’m not making that up- it’s a real career aspiration in the instagram era).
A little academic stress wouldn’t hurt these kids, believe me. They know what every Kardashian is doing at every moment of the day, but they’re not figuring out strategies on how to get Princeton to accept them, or even figuring out if they need to knuckle down academically to keep their grades high enough for the local college.
I think some things are just easier today than a few decades ago. Technology allows students to get information faster, calculate more quickly and accurately and focus on concepts not calculating. This allows students to move through courses more quickly and better students achieve more in less time. We also have more loops. Few of my friends ever took a standardized test more than once let alone study for a retest. Now we have everything from books to Kahn Academy to bump scores up a few points. The number of students scoring a 36 going from 74 in 1997 to 1407 in 2014. Even given the greater number of students who took the test the % has gone up from .00771 to .0762. Nearly a 10 fold increase. If you extrapolate say with scores of over 32 that is a huge jump in the number of top scoring students. The remarkable thing is that the average scores have remained flat. There has been a rise at the top and my guess is many more students who simply aren’t prepared taking the test at the bottom. I tried to post the wiki page but it wouldn’t post. Look under “ACT scores changes from 1997 to 2014” to see where I got my data.
“These kids have no margin of error.”
Only if they are in the rat race, but nobody has to participate in the rat race. Lots of paths to any goal in the US.
@PurpleTitan I agree. But its hard to counter the pressure they are getting from the culture and from their peers. I do the best I can. Somehow they all get the message that the only way into a “good” college is straight A’s. There is only so much an parent can do.
^ Yeah, we need to get them more focused on success in life as the goal rather than certain colleges as the goal.
Some kids are in the rat race and some kids aren’t. Yes, the kids who do succumb to the pressure to try to exceed at everything will probably have higher GPAs and test scores, and are therefore more likely to go to a selective college. But, this does not mean they will be more successful long term in life, or happier. I think in many cases the kids who learn to relax and have fun end up as happier adults than the ones who are always pushing themselves to be the best at everything.
Several billionaires said that one trait which made them billionaires or financially successful is that they are obsessive people. So with bigger rewards come more stress. Is that a surprise, no? I have a very simple test for whether you lived a successful life, and that’s if your spouse and/or kids say you have been a good dad/mom after you are dead and gone. I realize that some may disagree on this but that’s been one of few life philosophies I have. If my kid one day misses or appreciates me as much as I miss and appreciate my mom who passed away last year, I will consider my life to have been a modest success.
Based on my life experiences so far, I generally distrust people who want to change the world without wanting to change themselves for better or without caring for their family members or friends who helped them in their lives.
I learned a long time ago that trying to win a rat race is a dangerous competition because you still come out a rat even if you come out the winner. Indeed to win the rat race, you might have to be the biggest rat of them all. The only way to win the race is run the race for some higher purpose at your own pace. Ignore the noise and listen to your conscience during the silence of the starry night. Ironically, the biggest skill is learning to ignore all the noise even on CC forum.