<p>Another resource is Naviance. I know there’s at least one CC thread with several people’s guest login passwords. There’s nothing like those real-case green boxes or red x’s to see what SAT/GPA combos are actually needed at specific colleges on the scattergrams. It’s a great, visual representation. Here’s an old one: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/115922-if-your-school-guidance-has-naviance-please-give-me-code.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/115922-if-your-school-guidance-has-naviance-please-give-me-code.html</a> I know not all of these are still active–maybe someone should start a new one?</p>
<p>“Unless the school in question is a safety, can’t miss school, you can’t fall in love with it. Wait until you get your acceptances and then fall in love.”</p>
<p>I would add not to fall in love unless it was affordable and get financial aid packages back. S fell in love but couldn’t go due to $$$$$.</p>
<p>Yes, show him some Naviance scattergrams so he can see that Purdue is out of the question with those stats.</p>
<p>I’d push the CC too - better to come out of CC with good stats than to go to a 4 year, flunk out, then try to rectify the situation at the CC. Two years at the CC and most schools won’t look at HS/ACT records.</p>
<p>I wonder if the Alg II problems stem from poor preparation, since so many had that problem? One can self-study math; kids should sit down with a basic algebra book, do problems from the whole book, then go on to Alg II and do problems. If, after having taken Alg II, getting problems right is a problem, then engineering is out of the question due to lack of ability. If son/friends won’t do that work on their own,then engineering is probably out due to lack of commitment/work ethic.</p>
<p>Take a look at tech programs at SIUC, ISU and other state schools if math seems to be a potential problem. Good luck!</p>
<p>OP-
You/your son could consider lesser lesser ranked schools like Southern Polytech:</p>
<p>[Southern</a> Polytechnic State University](<a href=“Kennesaw State University in Georgia”>Kennesaw State University in Georgia)</p>
<p>[Southern</a> Polytechnic: Incoming freshmen](<a href=“Kennesaw State University in Georgia”>Kennesaw State University in Georgia)</p>
<p>
If he does really well in his first few years he might be able to transfer to Ga Tech.</p>
<p>ellemenope, my assumption is always that the bottom half of the test score range is really only for kids with a hook. OP did not mention any hook (sports, spectacular EC, legacy, minority status, geographic diversity, etc.). And he is below the 25% point, not just below the 50% point. I would not assume that he is in much better shape with his test scores than he is with his GPA (I certainly agree with your GPA comments).</p>
<p>I looked up the Common Data set for Purdue. The ACT range for 25th percentile to 75th percentile among admitted students in 23-29. 35% of the admitted students ranked in the top 10% of their high school classes, 70% ranked in the top quarter, and 95% ranked in the top half of their high school classes. Only 1% of the admitted students had high school GPA’s of 2.0-2.49, and none had below 2.0. The OP’s son would have to have something really, really major going for him, to gain admission to Purdue (recruited varsity football player?). I think the majority of Purdue engineering students have probably taken calculus in high school. </p>
<p>It is possible to go from struggling with Algebra 2 to understanding differential equations, but it will take a major turn-around in the approach to mathematics. OP, your son needs to really “get” Algebra 2 and about four more years worth of mathematics beyond that to have any chance of success in engineering. This is the biggest thing to address.</p>
<p>Also, sorry for the repetition–just realized that this thread had a second page.
The relatively high admissions rate at Purdue (and other large state universities in the Midwest) may be misleading. When a school has a high in-state population, the high-school guidance counselors in the state tend to steer their students toward universities where they have a reasonable chance of admission, and away from the universities where they don’t. One of our local high schools has a poster in the hallway with GPA and test-score combinations, connected to the recommended colleges to try for. Also, out-of state-admission tends to be more competitive than in-state–in the sense that the students admitted from out-of-state will generally have higher qualifications than the in-state students who are admitted.</p>
<p>there seem to be two separate issues here–</p>
<p>1) what you are willing/able to contribute financially to his college education. you owe your son honesty in this regard. there are always posts here in april when parents bemoan the fact that their kid got into a dream school that they can’t afford and they first have to deal with breaking the news at that point – just isn’t fair to a kid to let them get excited about a school and then pull the financial rug out from under him/her. it’s a sad fact of life, but affording college simply has to be one of the issues tackled up front as part of the process. it doesn’t necessarily mean not applying to some schools out of the price range – as long as the kid knows that going will depend on a) financial aid, b) merit aid, c) the student finding a way to fill the cost gap (but make sure part of the discussion includes just how burdensome student loan debt can be so any decisions are made reasonably), or d) any combination of the above.</p>
<p>2) helping your son get a more realistic handle on his chances. one math class doesn’t explain his gpa. it may have made things worse, but it simply isn’t the whole story – don’t let him fixate on it as the source of his problems. give him the cold hard data. see if his guidance counselor can help with reality. does his HS either use Naviance or otherwise have admission data for its applicants?
its really hard to let your child know how colleges may regard his application without your child thinking it is YOU who are judging him/her. if you can get others who he might see as more objective to talk to him, it might help (guidance counselor, older students who’ve gone thru the process, students at schools he is considering).</p>
<p>as far as handling rejection – its simply a part of life and part of the college application process. there have been threads over the years about top students grappling with rejections – a year or two ago about there was a thread about one truly top student who got in to NO schools the first go around – helped provide many here with a wake up call on the importance of having “safety” schools on the list. but the point is, no matter what your son’s credentials, rejection simply can be part of the process. all you can do is encourage him to make up a realistic list that includes schools where his chances of admission are good and to go into the process understanding the risk of rejection (even at supposed safeties!). its ok to apply to some “reaches” as long as the student understands going into the application what their chances are.</p>
<p>This is going to sound harsh, but I really agree that your son needs to prove himself before you put out a lot of tuition money. A 22 ACT and 2.4 GPA actually makes me wonder if he is even ready for college level work. He may need to take some remedial classes before going off to a 4 year school. This isn’t necessarily a negative. If he isn’t academically prepared for college level work it is better that he deals with it now and gets himself prepared, even if it means a year or two at a community college, rather than send him to a four year school to fail. I have a friend with a daughter with similar stats. UWV did take her, but she really struggled her freshman year and wasted a lot of money. I am not sure if she is or even can go back in the fall and I have been afraid to ask.</p>
<p>OK, this probably won’t go over well on CC where most parents and/or kids are high achievers. </p>
<p>The OP’s son is average. An ACT score is 22 is pretty much the national average (it was 21 in 2009). A GPA of 2.4 is a C which is average. It means he learned the material and has an average understanding of it. </p>
<p>Are these stat’s typical of what CC parents expect? No. But lots of C average kids go to college–maybe not Harvard or the likes but it doesn’t have to mean community college–though there is nothing wrong with community college.</p>
<p>I agree the OP needs to discuss finances and expectations with her son. It then becomes a family decision. But I think we all need to understand that it’s OK to be average. An average student won’t have the same opportunities of a B, B+ or A student but they do have choices.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Problem is average won’t cut it in engineering. Superior performance in high school (or special circumstances like sharp kid who never applied himself) is necessary to suceed in engineering.</p>
<p>A 2.4 isn’t “average” anymore. It’s below average. And combined with a 22 on the ACT, and with having struggled through Algebra II as a JUNIOR, an engineering degree is out of the question. I’m sure he’s a great kid but I would never pay out of state tuition for him.</p>
<p>
When I went to school, in the 1970s, a lot of kids took Algebra II as a junior, and many of those kids went on to become engineers.</p>
<p>People sometimes take a little longer to get their heads and work ethic in gear. Some work a few years, do a stint in the military, or, heaven forbid, attend a CC before getting it together. </p>
<p>An engineering degree or out-of-state tuition may be ill advised now, but that doesn’t mean you have to completely write it off.</p>
<p>As a teacher I do not believe a 2.4 is average for someone who wants to attend college. It is average on a scale of A-F, but not for the college bound. And if this GPA was earned in regular or honors classes in a typical public high school I think that the child either struggles academically and needs help or is really lazy. The 22 ACT score makes me lean toward needing academic help. </p>
<p>Community Colleges are set up for students like this. They will give class placement tests to all incoming degree earning students and put them in the classes they need to succeed. The downside is that if a child’s placement test has them taking remedial classes these classes usually do not count toward their degree, but if it helps them get prepared for the degree classes than it is worth it. </p>
<p>I agree that a lot of very academically successful students have a slow start out of high school, but that doesn’t mean that with a little maturity and hard work they can’t become a top notch academic student. It depends a lot on how much the child wants it, not the parent.</p>
<p>Thanks to the above poster for pointing out that the OP’s son has an “average” ACT. I have been panicking lately as to whether my son will be able to handle his chosen college, because there are indeed a lot of “geniuses” going there next year. But I have to be reminded of the campus tour guide, who just raved about the engineering students at son’s school. Why, the average GPA of the engineering students was a whopping 26! Now, I know the OPs son now has a 22, but he could probably bring that up, and if not, the AVERAGE at son’s school is 26. That means there’s kids above and below a 26. Also, many schools have summer math programs to give kids below certain test scores a leg up before entering college courses.</p>
<p>The average may have been 26 for engineers at that school, but I bet the breakdown of those scores was a higher math score (28+) and lower on the other subsections. OP doesn’t say what her son’s ACT breakdown was. If you can’t do math, you will flunk out of any engineering program worth attending in the first year. I do agree with the other posters who say that a kid who is motivated and has enough ability CAN beef up their math skills and be successful. But know that engineering is the most notorious major for taking 5 years (instead of 4) to start with, and a kid who doesn’t have a knack for it may never make it through, at least not as an engineer.</p>
<p>Agree, engineering is usually a five year program. </p>
<p>At orientation, an engineering professor said that in past years, they used to tell the kids, look to your left, look to your right, those kids won’t be there next year.</p>
<p>Nowadays, they are taking a more cooperative approach and helping kids along, rather than weeding them out. More tutoring is offered, and the remedial summer programs are also offered.</p>
<p>Also, that math sense may not kick in until college.</p>
<p>Conversely, another college in the same state, at their engineering session, the advisor cautioned kids against assuming they would do well in college math because they had excelled in high school math, and even recommended against using AP credit to go into higher math classes. They actually required math testing for all students, no matter their stats, to see where exactly they were in math before placing them in precalc or calc I, despite what AP credit they had. </p>
<p>I do believe some schools are selective in their engineering programs, and where one may get admitted generally to a college, they won’t be admitted into the engineering program. Many schools will admit you as a preengineering major, and then you have to be accepted into your chosen engineering major.</p>
<p>We discouraged son from applying to such schools, especially if they were going to be a financial stretch for us, and if they were very far from home. No need to spend a fortune going somewhere that you’re not guaranteed admission to your major.</p>
<p>Since the OPs son has his sights set on a ranked engineering school, I would encourage him to apply to more than one safety, so that he’s not backed into a corner of having to “settle” for one particular school because it is the only one that accepted him and/or it was the only one in his parents’ financial reach.</p>
<p>I would be curious to know if that school’s average ACT score is 26 for incoming freshmen or is that the average for 2nd or 3rd year engineering students. Saying one wants to major in engineering and actually following through are very different. My husband is an engineer and he knew a lot, and I mean a lot of students who started out in engineering but changed after freshmen or during sophomore year because of the math. I teach IB kids who are very strong students and many of them claim that they are going to major in engineering senior year but after one year or so in college they change their major because of the math. </p>
<p>When my son was an incoming high school freshman my husband went with him to the Engineering and Drafting teacher’s class presentation at the Open House. He chuckled to himself about all of the parents who vied for the few slots for the program because their son was going to be an engineer. He told me later that if they were that concerned about preparing their child for engineering, then they should be more concerned about their math classes instead of a drafting class.</p>
<p>Math is so important to engineering that one of my husband’s graduate level classes was strictly about one math equation/theory. I don’t know which one, but it was important enough to have an entire semester class on it.</p>
<p>Somehow I knew that there would be a rash of posts that a C and/or a 22 ACT weren’t average but I still beg to differ. Many kids don’t score over a 24 on the ACT and do fine in college and if a 2.4 (C average) isn’t average then why do we still have a 4.0 scale with 2.0 being the middle ground?</p>
<p>I know many kids, especially boys, who have matured late. My son’s guidance counselor tells the story of a boy who had mostly C’s and D’s until he “woke up” at the tail end of junior year. He applied himself the rest of that school year and his senior year and he did have choices of colleges to attend and was happy.</p>
<p>As far as engineering, you’re right it might not be the major for the OP’s son but maybe it is. He could be accepted to a pre-engineering program and do very well or he could go to college take a general ed requirement and decide he loves something completely different. That’s the beauty of going to college and growing.</p>
<p>At this point it’s up to his parents to decide what they will or won’t pay. Maybe they feel community college is best or maybe they are willing to give him a shot at starting at a 4 year college. If it were my son and he had his heart set on the college experience I would let him go to a 4 year college that was affordable with the understanding I expected passing grades. If he was engineering or pre-engineering I would make sure he knew the expectatons the school had of his maintaining or entering that degree program.</p>
<p>And for what it’s worth I have a friend whose son scored a 23 on the ACT and only had a 3.0 GPA who was admitted into an engineering program.</p>
<p>I think my son got lazy during junior year. All the kids started driving and I think they all started slipping.</p>
<p>My son got a 25 in the math on the ACT, so I’m not as worried as the rest of you are! He was also carrying an AP US History Class (C), and Honors Physics (C). The Algebra 2 I think he did poorly at was because he missed a week during late spring, and doesn’t like to ask for help…ended in the D. Next semester, he has AP Physics, AP Psych, Trig/Calc, Eng., and Spanish. I see now that most of the schools he’s interested in only ask for 2 years of a foreign language for engi., so he can propably drop that.</p>
<p>He likes to be challanged, hence his desire to AP and honors classes. I think this last semester was a low point due to his, to be honest, not applying himself.</p>
<p>We are fortunate enough, thanks to my mom, to have College Illinois paid up for 4 years of college. That’s tuition only, but still a fantastic start. We will also be eligable for some sort of financial aid as well, but at this stage in the game, I’m not going out on a limb for an out of state $26K tuition bill. I think my son has been listening to his friend who has a higher ACT and gpa who wants to go to Purdue. The problem is, is that these kids are choosing colleges without having the slightest clue as to the criteria needed to be admitted as well as just assuming their parents will pop for the bill.</p>
<p>CC is out of the question as the one in our district is not the best by any means. He will not be happy there, nor will I. I also don’t think it will be the place for him if he is to succeed in college. He wants to go to one college and stay there, so I’m hoping we make the correct decision in the beginning. He wanted to go to U. of I/Urbana, but the stats are too high, and they weed out freshmen at that school like there’s no tomorrow. I’ve been looking at U. of I/Chicago which is less than an hour from us, but want him to stay on campus. They have both engineering and architecture programs.</p>
<p>If you have any more suggestions, please…send them on to me!!!</p>
<p>Thanks for all your ideas!</p>
<p>Every engineering school weeds out freshman like none other. He will need to prepare himself for tons of studying and tons of homework if he is to graduate as an engineer.</p>
<p>Not applying yourself is a huge reason for failure in college. It’s easy to get distracted with all of the fun things going on at college. He’ll need to make sure he stays focused and applies himself every day.</p>