I had a small job for a contractor. My roof is fine, old but no leaks except on dormers facing west, ice dams form from time to time blocking melted snow from drying. When it’s bad enough, it seeps through the ceiling plaster. It doesn’t happen often, maybe every 5-6 years. When it happens, it’s just a slow drip. Last summer, I contacted a well regarded roofer to put ice shields over the dormer to stop the leak. It’s not a big dormer and there are about 7 rows of shingles covering the dormer. He said once he takes shingles out to install ice shields, he had to replace all the shingles to the top, about 30 rows total. I know I should have gotten a few other estimates but he is well regarded and there were other things going on in my life at the time and it was a small job and I am lazy in matters like this. In the end, I didn’t bother and signed the contract. Fast forward, his subcontractor came out to do the job the other day. He saw no need to replace all the shingles and after talking to my roofer replaced 7 rows of shingles over the dormer. The question is what is the right amount to pay. The quote I got is for replacing 30 rows of shingles and ice shields. I got ice shields and 7 rows of new shingles.
Have you received an invoice for the completed work? If not, you may find that they adjust the final bill.
If not, I would speak with the contractor, remind him of the discrepancy from quote to actual shingles replaced. I would expect a reputable contractor would only bill for actual work done.
I would not pay for shingles that did not get replaced. But I would remain calm and allow for civil conversation with contractor, hoping for a reduced final bill.
I just got the final bill in the email. It looks like he adjusted down by about 1/3 charging me 2/3 of the estimate. I think it should be lower. The completed job are is only about 1/4. There’s ice shields. I have no idea how much that would be. I am thinking I owe them probably about 1/3 certainly less than 1/2. I think the contractor and I share the loss, he for misjudging and I for not doing the homework.
I would question if there were shingles purchased for the job that were not used. Maybe the contractor can not return the unused shingles? If that is the case, I would ask to get those unused shingles to keep in case of future need.
A lot of the cost of doing a job, especially for a small job, is fixed. It’s not at all directly proportional to the amount of materials used.
But if you feel the final price should be lower, then respond with what you think is a fair price and why, and start a dialog. You’ve got the leverage right now because the work has already been done and the contractor has no money yet.
NRE, in your mind what would be a fair price to suggest?
They hardly used the material. They always get way more than they need. In this case, they needed only a quarter of their estimate. They took what’s left back. I am sure they can use it at some other job.
Without knowing all the details it’s hard to say. And I am not a contractor or roofer.
The ice shield material can cost as much as the shingles per sq foot. Maybe they had to replace drip edge or do some other work. How hard is it to access the dormer? How high off the ground? How far did they have to travel? How much sq footage are we talking about? How much was the original quote? Are we talking thousands, or hundreds?
Clearly you feel the final price is too high. So ask them to justify it, or counter-offer with what you feel is fair.
I agree that a calm discussion is in order. In the event that you continue to feel that
the bill should be lower ask for the extra shingles. Something could come up down the
line and if you are paying higher than seem right at least you would have them.
Most of the work is in fitting around obsticles: dormers, chimneys, skylights, etc. The shingles installation is a small part if the time/materials involves in roofing.
There are two dormers. One is about 3’ wide the other about 15’. They are both about 3’deep. The smaller one is about 15’ off the ground. The bigger one is over the balcony about 8’ above the balcony. Not hard to get to. Just off the driveway. The contractor is in the area but he sent subcontractors. No idea how far they had to travel. It took them about 5 hours to get the job done, 3 guys, one on the roof the other two on the ground cutting and cleaning up. The job was in the order of thousands. I think material cost was only a small part. Ice shields at Homedepot is about $145 for 3’ by 75’.
I’d like to counter offer with something reasonable. I do take some responsibility for not taking another bid. But I wouldn’t like to pay for the pickup of leftover material that was hardly used. IMO that’s on him. He should have known better since there’s a natural break where the dormer meets the roof.
@oregon101 I can’t go up to the roof at my age. If anything goes wrong, a roofer had to come out with shingles. We did build a birdhouse with leftover shingles many years ago. Needed only a few.
@HRSMom There is nothing to fit over the dormers. Just simple slightly slanted flat roof, two simple rectangles shoved into the roof, one 3’ by 3’ish the other 15’ by 3’. No chimney, no pipes no fitting anywhere except where it meets the roof with a straigt line. They are open on both sides. They are not very high off the ground. The roof starts on top of the first floor. My second floor is wrapped with roof. That’s why we have dormers. Had they had to go to the top, that would involve height, three stories high. The roof is steep.
I’m not sure if it applies here, but my Dad always thought the time for negotiating was before a deal was struck, not after.
As we have heard tv judges say, you don’t eat the hamburger then complain afterward it wasn’t good and refuse to pay. I understand you aren’t refusing 100%, but you made no provision about paying a reduced rate. The contractor has offered you a reduced rate. What if the contractor took far more time than he estimated? Would you want him to hold firm on his quote?
Much of the cost of roofing is the skill and labor to make the repair. It really isn’t based on the number of shingles purchased. What if the actual repairman was wrong and it turns out more rows replaced would have been better?
I have a roofer on speed dial.
If a job he did for me turned out more complicated than originally thought, he would tell me and I would pay him more. And vice versa. But maybe that’s just because we have a long-term relationship, he’s probably done 8 roofs and sided 4 houses for me.
In this case it appears the work was overstated in the original bid. Maybe that was an honest mistake, maybe not.
For a full roof it pretty much is. They calculate the “squares” (a square being 100 sq ft) and that drives the price. Every roof contract I’ve ever done also has provisions for what happens if they need to repair any of the sub-roof, so there are no surprises, because you never know what you may find under the shingles.
Maybe get a bid for what was actually done to bolster your argument?
It’s really hard to get someone out for a small job. My H usually asks contractors to do time and materials because he thinks it’s more fair for both parties.
I would tread lightly because it’s so hard to get someone to do small jobs and what happened to you is part of it. They have to pay people, pay insurance on the job etc. And when it’s a small job, they just don’t make that much to make it worth the aggravation. Decide if you think you will need this contractor out again to another job and it sounds like he did reduce the price some. Some things are just set.
My H would say to pay the invoice that he sent you. But that’s him, he’s an engineer who does projects and deals with contractors all the time. Just my $.02
Just contact him and ask how he came up with that price, since they only replaced 1/4 of the shingles that were originally contracted. Don’t be antagonistic or confrontational, tell him you are just trying to understand.
^Good suggestion! I sent him an email asking the breakdown. I also pointed out that the completed job covers only about 25% and that I thought 35-40% should cover it. Now I regret mentioning 40%. I should have stuck to 35%. It think it is the easiest portion of the job. It’s not very high and over the dormer there is a piece of solid plywood making it easy to work on. Beyond that the only thing under the shingles is the A frame. I am guessing that’s why the subcontractors brought up the issue. I think they didn’t want to work above the dormer.
notrichenough has an excellent point, for replacing a whole roof. It is easy to calculate the squares.
Unfortunately, this does not apply to the op’s project, as the contractor estimated the number of shingles needed to repair the damaged/deteriorated roof area. The sub on the job determined a smaller shingle area needed replacing. One hopes he is right, and didn’t replace too few shingles.
You were smart to ask for a breakdown. Construction jobs of any kind are weird, because as others have pointed out it isn’t linear. Things like insurance likely will cost as much replacing a whole roof as it would a smaller job, labor is a major factor and also it depends on how hard the job is, in the original example having dormers to work around might be more labor intensive than finishing the rest of the roof.
To tell you the difference in cost, I once got an estimate on doing a french drain system in my basement. A contractor gave me one of the big hustles, if I could give him the go ahead to do the job on X date, he was doing another job billed for 5 days that he would finish in three, and because things like insurance were covered by the other job, I could save money. Another contractor I ultimately chose, who was cheaper and likely better than the first one with the discount, said that by doing my job under the umbrella of the other job, the contractors cost would be reduced to about 900 bucks, when if he did it flat out it likely would be around 3000 dollars, needless to say he didn’t offer me a proportional discount to what he actually saved).
So those 30 rows of shingles versus 7 rows will not translate into a 75% reduction in price, it is why getting an invoice is usual, the cost of the shingles is likely one of the smallest parts of the cost, especially at the price the contractor likely pays if he does any kind of volume, and that 2/3 price might be fair.
It’s a simple dormer, as simple as it gets. I still haven’t heard back from my contractor. I would think the labor is the most expensive part. They saved a great deal on that alone as far as I can see. The only discount I got, I think, is the savings from not having to have subcontractors come out again on the second day.