<p>OP, one of the the reasons I reacted so strongly to your original posts is that I have a lot of familiarity with gifted kids, having raised one and observed many other highly gifted kids at my son’s school for 9 years.There is ALWAYS a discrepancy between the INTELLECTUAL abilities of highly gifted children and their EMOTIONAL maturity. The highly gifted child IS STILL A CHILD, and needs to have loving guidance, and support, and should NOT be FORCED into taking advanced classes, just because they are able to do the work. The gifted can be very FRAGILE emotionally, especially a child who may feel isolated from his chronological peers in school , because what is hard for others to master is effortless for him to learn. The gifted child can be very lonely, if he doesn’t have accepting peers to share his interests and unique abilities with. Your parents should NOT be focused on trying to encourage your brother to advance his studies online, alone, for the sake of advancement. HE should be the DRIVING FORCE behind any desire to take accelerated courses. They SHOULD be focused on trying to help him find his intellectual AS WELL as age peers in the gifted population, spending $ on sending him to CTY summer programs, or special summer programs for the highly gifted like the Davidson institute, instead of on online classes.
[Profoundly</a> Gifted Children Services and Programs by the Davidson Institute](<a href=“http://www.davidsongifted.org/]Profoundly”>http://www.davidsongifted.org/)
They need to do some serious research into nurturing the gifted, and not just expect that your brother can teach himself all on his own, just because of his hi IQ.</p>
<p>Check into SENG (Serving the Emotional Needs of Gifted), you can find them on the web. Also look into the Davidson Institute. If he’s doing the course through JHU-CTY call them, describe the problem and listen to what advise they can offer. They are experienced at dealing with the needs of gifted students and may be able to offer some possible solutions.<br>
This sounds like a mismatch between the emotional maturity and intellectual level. The sooner your brother and parents understand the difference, the better.</p>
<p>With more information from the original poster, it seems as if the online course is not stressing the brother out, and he is doing very well in it. It seems the school may have found this opportunity for him when the school felt they could not offer what he needed. The problem is the obsessive-compulsive reaction to grade of 98, over the “missing 2%”.</p>
<p>I agree this could be related to puberty. More importantly, since the poster took care of his younger brother for years, and was an obvious “buffer” (as someone said) and source of support, I think the brother’s absence is significant for the brother. This must be hard for the poster, to have that kind of responsibility while trying to move on with his own life (I forget, are you male or female?!)</p>
<p>Giftedness is a special need requiring individualized help, just like any other special need. In some ways, it is a good thing that the school recognized the need for deeper math, rather than the teacher just assigning more problems than others had to do ( a common and misguided strategy some teachers use for gifted students). But the support needs to be there to temper the impersonality of many online programs, perhaps.</p>
<p>Your brother is going to need some intensive help. Perhaps the school can provide it, or direct your parents and brothers to this help. He could have obsessive- complusive tendencies or some anxiety that could be helped with something called cognitive behavioral therapy, which deals with thinking patterns.</p>
<p>I am not sure what your ethnic background or culture is, but wonder if this plays a role at all here-?</p>
<p>Implications that child protective services might get involved seem cruel, and will discourage the parents from seeking help. These kinds of ideas can drive people underground.</p>
<p>I cannot tell, from this post, that any abuse or neglect is going on, and neither can anyone else. It is clear, however, that there are symptoms of some mental health issue coming into play here at the start of puberty, and the boy certainly needs some help.</p>
<p>The poster might also want to seek a couple of counseling sessions, perhaps at BC, to help him deal with this.</p>
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<p>I’m Asian. Maybe that explains the “perfectionism”.</p>
<p>We’re not neglecting him at all. We’ve been trying to slow him down a bit and forcing him to play and not work so hard. We’re going to continue doing that to see if there are any improvements. Therapy is expensive, though, so that’s out of the question for us. The school knows about the problem and has given him more attention.</p>
<p>We’re going to let him finish the course this year, then stop him from taking calculus online. To supplement, we’re gonna let him join the math team. I personally think competition math, which is only offered in middle and high school, will help him improve his math without the stress of being perfect. When he’s a bit older and (hopefully) show signs of emotional improvement, I’ll talk to my high school about letting him take Calculus there. This seems like the best approach right now.</p>
<p>I know for a fact that he’s starting puberty. :)</p>
<p>Thanks for all your help.</p>
<p>Have him in tons of EC’s. D. has been involved in 3 - 5 different activities all thru HS. One of them was daily (or 2/day) practice in her sport (3 hours with travel). The only rule in a house - no homework after 10pm, so she had to complete everything every evening before her EC’s. Worked like charm! She has never had “B” so far (college junior), very outgoing. She graduated #1 from her HS and still very close to her HS friends.</p>
<p>I think using phrases like “child abuse” and “medical neglect” might well be premature here. I also think that while it never hurts to get a professional opinion, it’s entirely possible that there is no actual illness here although it is also possible there is. It’s not really possible for us to tell based on the limited information you’ve given and diagnosing on a discussion forum is problematic at best. But I see that therapy is not really a consideration right now for financial reasons.</p>
<p>I am a mental health professional and have taught workshops on parenting gifted and highly gifted children. My own kids ranged from gifted to highly gifted and have been in a number of gifted programs over the years, so I’ve seen a lot of the behavioral stuff that can co-exist with giftedness. Perfectionism and giftedness often go together the way blue eyes and blonde hair are often seen together. It’s not just a response to the environment, it can be a deeply wired trait. Of course, an environment that values achievement would exacerbate it. However, placing a highly gifted child in a program that will challenge them is not the same thing as sending them a message that they can’t be less than perfect.</p>
<p>I address perfectionism in gifted kids when I do workshops. It can be a very tough thing to deal with for families. My youngest child was probably more extreme than your brother in that he didn’t wait until 5th grade to display this kind of behavior. It started in preschool. He is highly gifted and had that innate drive for perfectionism. In preschool, he’d start a picture (with crayons) and insist on a new paper if he made a “mistake”. By age 5 or so, if he was working on a math workbook (he liked that stuff) and was making a mistake and I gently pointed it out so he’d learn the right way, he’d run to his room and sob for an hour or so straight and could not break out of that cycle. I figured he’d have a nervous breakdown by second grade at that rate. So what to do? There are actually a number of steps parents and family members can take. </p>
<p>When his fabulous preschool teacher said to him, “Everyone makes mistakes. Mommy makes mistakes, Daddy makes mistakes and I make mistakes,” his answer was “Weellllll, maybe my Daddy, but not my Mommy!” While I thought it was cute, I also realized I was the person who could bust the myth of perfection, so every time I made a mistake, I pointed it out to him. “Look, Mommy was supposed to turn right there and missed it.” “Oh, Mommy forgot to buy eggs.” Etc. Pointing out mistakes as they occur all the time can model for a kid that it isn’t a tragedy to be less than perfect. In your case, your brother is older. But you can tell him your grades on tests, etc. and assuming they are not always 100%, you can model for him that it’s really okay. You can say, “I got a B+ on the chemistry test I studied so hard for. I really did my best and it’s a hard class. I feel good about that grade. I think I’ll treat myself to a movie.” For years, I celebrated “less than perfect” with my son – literally. I cheered when he didn’t do well and didn’t have a tantrum. We treated each “less than perfect” as a happy occasion where we could practice not flipping out and learning that the world doesn’t collapse. We were lucky to have teachers who got it and who worked with us. I knew we’d arrived last year when, in 9th grade, he missed the big rock review (where you look at and handle rocks) and then failed the test where you had to identify the rocks. It was great. I told him “Now you’ve experienced an F and it’s behind you – how great is that? And you didn’t flip out. Sure, you’ll have to work hard the rest of the semester to get an A (which he did) but the really great thing here is that you’re treating this with the proper perspective” (which he was.) But it took years of effort to get there. He is still high-achieving and a straight A student, but he is well within the range of normal emotionally.</p>
<p>There are other things you can do as well. I’ve always been a proponent of putting high-achieving kids into an activity that doesn’t play to their strengths. My highly gifted DD always wanted to do what her older brother did. When he played soccer, she wanted to play soccer and that’s how she learned that she wasn’t the best at everything out there. She learned in soccer that, try as she might, she was never going to be the star player the way she was in the classroom. And that is a valuable life lesson. It’s good for really smart kids to learn what it feels like to have to work hard at something and still not be the best. They gain perspective and they gain some empathy. So I suggest placing kids in a fun activity where they can’t just get by on pure talent. Art is a good activity as well. </p>
<p>You can talk about failure everywhere you see it. Does your brother like sports? Talk about it with him (even if he doesn’t like it.) Point out all the baskets that Kobe Bryant misses and point out that he never could get out there and play if he couldn’t handle missing baskets – part of his success is his ability to shrug off a missed basket. Give him some heros to admire. Show him how scientists usually don’t get something right the first time. Give him role models to learn from. </p>
<p>Ask him what the two percent means to him. If he’s as smart as it seems that he is, this might be the first time that something has really been hard for him. In one sense, he’s lucky. A lot of very bright people hit that moment in their junior year of high school or in college when the stakes are actually pretty high. It can be very upsetting for someone who has never had something challenge them to hit that moment when it isn’t easy. Can you have a conversation with him about it when he’s not upset? Can you spend some time with him doing something relaxing and talk about it in a roundabout way – maybe share what it was like for you when you didn’t achieve something you thought you should be able to. Play the “then what” game which is, “If you don’t get 100 % then what?” He probably looks up to you. Make sure you tell him that what you really value about him is not his intelligence or his ability to do pre-calculus. Tell him all the things about him that make him special that aren’t tied to his intellect. And, if you can, see if it’s possible to dial down the crying. If he’s crying for an hour at a time, can the two of you try to make a deal that the next time, he’ll watch the clock and stop at 45 minute? And slowly work his way down? It’s possible he might be able to exert some control but it’s equally possible that when he falls apart, he can’t. </p>
<p>Kids can be very emotional and gifted kids can be very intense in their reactions. And, as menloparkmom pointed out, their emotional development often lags behind their intellectual development. Sometimes you have to put the brakes on for them until they mature a bit. I think it’s great that you want to help him – he’s lucky to have you in his corner.</p>
<p>It is extremely difficult for many people to admit they need help–or even harder their kids need help. In your parents’ generation, many families handled all mental health issues on their own and it sounds as though this may be part of the issue. If your brother is taking such advanced classes, it might be appropriate to have him tested. The doctors who test for giftedness are psychiatrists and some anxiety might also be diagnosed and treated. If your brother can get some help now, it can make such a difference as he moves through middle and high school.</p>
<p>"Kids can be very emotional and gifted kids can be very intense in their reactions. " - That is if you allow them. I did not allow my kids to cry, no crying, period. Both of them (adults, youngest is 20) aprreciate it now very much and see big difference between their attitude and others. Need to start at 2 years old though. It is too late for 5th grader. When 2 years old is in tantrum, ignore. They stop very quickly, the best lesson that lasts life time.</p>
<p>The crying is something new, which is why it is concerning. Uncontrolled crying is not a discipline issue.</p>
<p>I see it as being too focused on one thing. When kids are engaged and having friends around them, having various interests, exploring new ones, every activity helps the other, brings it to different level, good sport coaches teach kids how to be good at loosing when it happen, learn from failures, communicate properly, respect, have control over emotions. This is natural learning that lasts lifetime. EC’s allow kids to meet others of various interests, become more accepting, including your own failures. Focus is important, but too much of it is dangerous and unproductive, leads to a lot of stress, teaches no life skills. The very top academic achievers are keeping themselves busy with various pursuites outside of school.</p>
<p>No crying, period? I hope that doesn’t really mean no crying period and that you were referring strictly to tantrums. Crying is a natural and healthy response to a lot of situations and an appropriate response for many situations. And I stand by my statement that gifted kids can be very emotional and intense in their reactions. Inappropriate reactions do need to be dealt with and inappropriate behavior worked on, but crying is not always something you want to eliminate. Great works of art, literature and art come from people who feel things intensely.</p>
<p>This boy’s crying is not the equivalent of a two year old’s temper tantrum. It might come from the same source–frustration–but I doubt “tough love” is the way to go here.</p>
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<p>The larger problem seems to be more the parents’ attitudes towards perfection. I agree with the poster who said that seeing the parents’ reactions to BCMan not getting into the Ivys may have really impressed him. Combine that with his own high standards for himself, the older brother leaving for college (he must be very attached to you since you spent so much time caring for him), and impending puberty, it’s no wonder he’s having a melt-down. mimk6’s advice sounds great, but it’s the parents who need to heed it.</p>
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<p>You people are out of your minds. This is a FIFTH GRADER. He doesn’t “need” to be taking pre-calculus. He doesn’t “need” to be a competition math team. He needs to be doing what normal fifth graders do, which is to go outside and ride bikes and giggle with friends and go to the roller rink and watch stupid movies and shoot silly string at one another. He needs professional counseling, and so do your parents. Spare me this “cultural differences” mindset. </p>
<p>Sorry.</p>
<p>Why do these ( mental health consultation ) threads make me crazy? I have not read all the posts; sorry if I am overeacting. Is it possible that the internet can actually DELAY treatment by a professional? </p>
<p>P.S. “Puberty” does not cause crying in 10 year old boys…</p>
<p>Also, what does “I did not allow my kids to cry, no crying, period.” mean? How does one “not allow crying”? You know what? Never mind.</p>
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<p>Oh yeah, like that’s any healthier than the push-them-to-the-limit perfectionist culture.</p>
<p>We don’t know if the younger child is “gifted” or not. He tested high in math. A lot of kids do. My son did at that age. We never treated him as “gifted”, but encouraged him to explore many things. (Academics, sports, theater, etc.) He was very bright, but also needed balance in his life. I think the term “gifted” is sometimes used by people (including parents) as an excuse for unusual or abnormal behavior that they don’t want to deal with.</p>
<p>I see the younger child’s compulsive behavior with the math online course as similar to the addiction that many kids at that age have with computer games and video games. It could be that he is spending too much time doing that, and getting frustrated. He may need to branch out and find other interests. My son found that he loved acting and theater. He also loved sports. He still excelled at math (AND video games), but he had fun doing other things. We encourged many other activities.</p>
<p>BC Man has commented that his parents didn’t help with any of his college applications, but ridiculed him and tormented him about his rejections.</p>
<p>I still stand by the notion that both kids are seeking attention and approval from the parents, and may not be getting it. The parents need to accept some responsibility.</p>
<p>I also remember that BCMan mentioned that one or both of his parents were immigrants.</p>
<p>It could be that they are trying so hard to live vicariously through their children, that they forget they are children. It sounds like the parents may need to spend more time to get to know both their kids.</p>
<p>1sokkermom, I assumed he was gifted because he is participating in a math program from JHU/CTY, and their programs are for kids who are identified as gifted and students have to meet their criteria in order to participate. Even if he only tested high in math/science, he’d still be considered gifted in those areas. Also, I think I read that his school helped him get into the program – there must have been some feeling from his school that he needed more than the standard 5th grade curriculum. I also assumed it because most ten-year olds aren’t going to be able to score 98% on a pre-calc class, no matter how hard they try or how much pressure they are put under. Most ten-year olds are still mastering fractions.</p>
<p>I have a range of reactions to the posts above, too, but trust that the OP will separate the wheat from the chaff.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this is wheat or chaff, but as a brother who’s not there to play with him, you might see how he likes a gift from you of CLAY. Not the model kits where you make tiny pieces and paint them by number with different tiny paintbrushes :(… but one big ol’ lump of clay 
around the size of a softball. Get advice from an art supply store; it should be soft, malleable and never harden when left unused. </p>
<p>The only rule is: he can’t keep anything he makes. After a day, he has to pound it back into the ball and start again.</p>
<p>When he asks, “what am I supposed to do with this?” you can tell him it’s just to mess around with. If you’re there, show him just how to squeeze some simple shapes with nothing particular in mind. Don’t judge the product, just have fun squishing it around. Big stress-buster.</p>
<p>There are probably some other toys on the market that have plastic geometric pieces to fit together into big 3-D objects, as he pleases. He might perceive that as mathematical but still fun. He can do that with a friend or alone in his room. Again, not to follow a set design but to make up his own.</p>
<p>I’m looking for things you have in your power as the Big Brother, to give him while living away. You sound great.</p>
<p>Also, I recall with a 6-year-gap when my eldest son went off to study overseas for 6 months, his brother (then age 10) began fainting and vomiting around 3 weeks later. A dozen tests later, the excellent family doctor (Asian, by the way) concluded it was without physical cause, and that he might just miss his big brother.</p>
<p>PS. If you have time at college, find Jodie Foster’s film, “Little Man Tate” to watch there at school.</p>
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<p>I think there is a difference between gifted in the sense of “I lap up this stuff, dream it night and day, and am always pushing myself to learn more about a topic,” and gifted in the sense of “I’m naturally smart to begin with, but I’m also pushed quite hard and exhorted to study, and afraid of the consequences if I don’t, and so therefore I <em>can</em> score quite high on qualifying tests for JHU/CTY, etc.”</p>
<p>Pizza, the qualifying test for CTY is the SAT, and kids have to score very high to qualify. So knowing gifted kids and how hard it is to score in the 95% at any age, I have no doubt he would qualify as “gifted”</p>