too much stress is a huge iusse for teens, not just in high school but in college as well. another AP course is not worth a healthy, happy childhood .
My D was similar to yours. She applied to some very selective LACs and a couple of tippy tops. She did not have calc. We used a private consultant who told us that as long as she wasnât applying for STEM, had four years of math up to precalc, and had most rigorous checked by her high school counselor, not having calc would not be an issue. My daughter got into three highly-regarded LACs, but not Tufts or Brown, though I doubt it was due to the lack of calc. Wesleyan wants calc, though not all top schools require it.
As for stress, my D realized after ninth grade that she wanted to tone things down. She decided that as long as she had the most rigor in all her other classes, it would be okay to take either one math or one science class at regular level each year. She alternated years.: reg. algebra, pre-calc and chem. She âmade upâ for it by taking AP Stats, AP Environmental, H Physics, H Geometry and Science Research. She felt this showed that she could handle higher level math and science courses, but not stress herself out too much. Plus she was interested in them. She ultimately had seven APs, which is a lot at our HS, and a lot of honors courses. It worked well for her.
My S is totally different. He is really smart, but lazier than sis. Itâs harder to get him to challenge himself. But he also is dyslexic and dysgraphic, which of course is part of that. I do have to push him, but not too hard. Schoolwork is already harder for him. I have to be careful.
Every kidâs limit is personal. If you truly think your D is going to suffer with an overly-rigorous schedule, then you are within your rights to pull your parent card and tell her to take it down a notch. I think some kids are overly-ambitious and it comes back to bite them. Many senior posters have seen kids melting down here because they loaded up on too many APs and donât do well. The problem with taking more and more APs each year is that it gets harder to maintain high grades in them, and the most selective colleges want high grades. Some of this has to do with individual schools too. Do all the kids who are aiming high take at least ten APs, and do the teachers assign a ton of homework? I can tell you once a kid is on the slippery slope of stressing about a low B in an AP class, it is really hard to get back up that hill. Itâs good to try to make a hill that isnât too high in the first place. Know your kidâs limits, and be prepared to step in if you feel itâs necessary.
Very well said @Lindagaf. My D was similar but she was more or a STEM kid so she gave herself a break by not taking the two AP History (she did take AP Psych) courses that are incredibly time consuming in our HS. This gave her time to breathe, focus on the subjects she cared most about, and continue her in-depth involvement in community service, theater, and orchestra.
Fortunately her guidance counselor was excellent and knew my D well and he stepped in to convince her to moderate her schedule a bit so i didnât have to get directly involved.
My D was not aiming for the tippy top LACs but she did get into her top choice.
My D did not take any AP social studies classes ( World, US History etc). She did take AP in all of the other subjects but decided on honors for all social studies classes because it was not where her main interests were. She did question her decision - she had a phenomenal US history teacher and wondered if she should have taken AP - but it worked out fine. She was encouraged to take AP SS by her teachers⊠But if she had taken these classes it would have put her way over the edge. This was something about her that her teachers did not know⊠but I knew it quite well.
I donât really think it mattered in terms of college acceptances.
When I was a senior in high school, I opted to take AP Stats even though Iâd taken pre-calc and gotten As both semesters. The reason was solely because AP Calc AB (the first in the two-part series of AP calculus classes, the second being BC) assigned summer work, and I was already taking a summer class. Though Calc AB was the more streamlined choice, I do not regret taking Stats at all. Because my stats class was made up of students who had either already completed Calc BC or wanted to avoid AP calc and skip into stats, it was an interesting mix. Because statistics felt so much more worthwhile and practical to me than graphing spheres and looking at functions, I truly learned a lot from my experience and am glad to have some statistical knowledge for life after high school.
My mother actually encouraged me not to take any math my senior year, because pre-calc was very difficult for me, but I knew I needed four years of math to be competitive. I got into UCSB and UCSD, as well as several Cal States, and my senior math class was never a problem. However, since I decided to go to community college, it posed a bit of a problem in getting my math GE credits out of the way since the course catalog changed quite a bit the summer I was enrolling, and there was a lot of back-and-forth on whether I would receive credit for AP Stats and get to be done with math forever (non-STEM major). No one was on the same page until late July, weeks before the semester would start. Thankfully I did get credit for Stats and was exempted from further math for my GE, but Iâm not sure how that will work at various universities.
If Wesleyan is your daughterâs top choice, she should do calc if they prefer/request it. If sheâs not sure, calc is always the safer option, but at the end of the day if sheâd get more from AP stats and if it would relieve some of her stress, I can personally attest to how great stats was for me. Best of luck to both of you in making the final decision!
Fwiw, my advice that she take calculus was not based on the impact on college admissions but on the base it will provide for college. Many non-STEM majors at more selective schools are required to take some level of math, and I suspect it is easier if the material isnât all new (especially when it wonât be for most of your classmates.) She may want to look over her college list to see if any have distribution requirements or if any contemplated majors will require her to master this material. There are certain subjects that are easier when first encountered in high school than college, even if they are hard. If sheâs sure she wonât need calculus - ever - or if she has some other way of learning it, skip it.
I fully appreciate the stress angle, but it seems a little crazy to forgo necessary education in pursuit of "better education ".
@gardenstategal , in our district, if a student isnât put in the higher level math track in middle school, it is impossible to complete calc by senior year. The district decided when kids were in fifth grade which track they would be on. (Completely ridiculous, but thatâs a different thread.) Had we known better, we would have asked for our daughter to be placed on the advanced track, which we did for our son three years later, and three years wiser. A senior in our school can only get as far as precalc if not on the advanced track.
I had a look at Wesleyanâs âinformation for new studentsâ on its math and CS page. Interestingly it offers no less than six apparently Intro-level calc courses and explicitly states that these classes are suitable for students who havenât had calc, or even pre-calc. I wonder why then calc is required to be considered for admission? Odd.
@lindagaf, I never said it was required for admission. Maybe someone else did? What I said was that many disciplines require calculus, and itâs generally easier to see the material at a high school pace, which for AB, is about half the speed of a college class. So for a student who becomes stressed and has the option to do this at a slower pace, is postponing calc actually helpful?
The OPâs daughter is on track to take calc, so she has the choice. Her situation is not the same as your daughterâs. I hate those schools, btw, that track so young.
I know @gardenstategal , donât worry, the situation for OP is a little different. I was just adding another perspective. Re Wes, it says on their website calc is required for admission. I should have created a different post for that comment. I am just puzzled why it says itâs required, but they offer classes in calc.
There is a difference between required and recommended-- and the fact that they report their statistics for how many members of their freshman class took calculus and the trifecta of bio/chem/physics. If 15% have not taken each, then it is not a ârequirementâ-- yet you will be in the minority if you donât take them. Necessary to take? No. Typical that most successful applicants have taken them? Yes.
A year ago, on this site, a Wesleyan student responded to me that his many of his friends at Wesleyan had done two out of three: calculus, bio/chem/physics, or four years foreign language.
Also Wes admits varsity athletes and people with other hooks who may get a bit of academic leeway in the admission process.
FWIW my S was in one of those schools that tracked them very early and only took pre-calc in HS. When he went to college he took calc and was in a class where all but 3 or so students had not had the material already. Needless to say he struggled (it didnât help that he thought the teacher wasnât very good) competing with others in the class who were already familiar and comfortable with the material. He got through it but it was time consuming (lots of visits to the math center) and it was a stressful way to start college. For that reason alone, Iâd recommend taking calc in HS.
it says recommended on their website, it would be really odd to say required when there are high schools that probably donât offer calculus or itâs not easily available at a local community college.
from post #27
totally agree that it is completely ridiculous. I didnât realize they âtrackâ the kids until I heard a âteacherâ said it during a hearing. Those in the âregular trackâ became the forgotten group.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond. What a great group here. My D is very driven and piles a lot on her plate. She has done fine through the tough junior year but just now as we approach the finish line her tank is running out of gas and she is struggling. I would love to weigh the pros and cons of a super rigorous senior year. So many of you have given me some nuggets to think about.
I think it makes most sense to do the AP Calc, I will lobby for that. She is dropping her free block/study period to add drama. Wish I could get her to drop that but I donât think Iâll win that battle
I think the most important thing you can do is help her find match and safety schools she LOVES. Honestly. Finding reaches is easy but the admissions are more and more ridiculous every year. The best thing is to find a great fit at matches or safeties.
@theloniusmonk , you are right, it says math through calc recommended, I misread that. I like @happy1 's point too. I am now wondering if my D should take calc, just in case! And @annamom , what a crock, right? In fact, our D ended up having to petition for all the of higher level classes I mentioned earlier because of a decision made about her when she was 10. Really stupid. And I agree 100% with @suzyQ7 , above.
OP, just be careful and look for signs of burnout. You may not be aware of this, but if she is really struggling in a class, she can drop it much later than the usual five week window and it wonât appear on her record. At least at our school, they are very good about that. If her GPA is in danger of tanking, and one class is causing her a lot of stress, many schools will quietly take it off the schedule. I do think she should do the drama class if she wants to. They work so hard for four years, and taking one class for fun is a very good thing. In your shoes, I would ask her to take regular calc over AP. Maybe say you reserve the right to insist that she do regular calc to preserve her GPA and sanity, if AP calc is causing problems. I just donât think there is a lot of benefit, given what she has already done, to jamming in another AP course versus a regular course.
Jumping in late here, from a mom whose D took AP stats in addition to regular calculus senior year, and sheâs not a math âpersonâ. AP Stats is a great class because there is a lot of practicality to it. A lot of what you learn is applicable to math concepts you encounter in everyday life. And it can be good prep for college because many majors require a stats class.
That being said Calculus is considered the more ârigorousâ class. But just because itâs more rigorous and challenging, that doesnât mean it is more work or time consuming. And work load is a big contributor of stress. Stats had some project work, some outside reading as well as day to day homework and problem sets. Calc was just straight up homework and problems. Stats may have been more time consuming because of that.
My D wanted to take calculus to have it on the transcript, but was not up for AP, so she took a calculus class that was non AP. Is that an option for your D?
Contrary to CC wisdom, CALCULUS IS NOT MANDATORY in college. In fact, for most students, college statistics is a much more useful math class to take - and for students not interested in STEM or business, statistics + âcitizenship mathâ (geometry and art, math in the real world/the news, math and elections around the world, etc.) is MUCH more useful because it forces them to use math in ways that they will need throughout their lives and to see math around them (rather as some abstract language unrelated to anything - which is how many kids not into STEM see math).
There shouldnât be a âcalculus worshipâ. Calculus is a basic foundation for some majors. It is necessary to others. It can be fun puzzles for some students. But calculus is absolutely not a college requirement nor will any employer care whether you took it (outside of majors that require it). In addition, many colleges have âshort calculusâ or âapplied calculusâ for non-stem majors, where a good precalculus foundation is all thatâs needed to do well in (with the students who already took calculus placed in other classes such as âSTEM calculusâ or sometimes âpremed calculusâ class - names change but the idea is common).
The OP has stated the student does well at math but poorly at science, and is already overly stressed. Considering the dangers to student health that stress+lack of sleep* causes, including the severe increase in mental health issues, I would steer clear from cookie-cutter advice that calculus is necessary.
- it means 7-8 hours of sleep each night for a senior (6 and below puts their health at risk.)
@swtaffy904 :
What was her schedule this year? What is she thinking of taking next year?
I would recommend she stick with Drama and AP Stats, but ups rigor in humanities/social science. Would that decrease stress for her?
Another possibility as mentioned above is to look into Honors Calculus (non AP).
Wesleyan recommends calculus: it means that if a student doesnât have it, s/he needs to offset that with some other class proving intellectual rigor. That can be done in different ways, but if the student is not interested in STEM, a philosophy class and/or an AP in a foreign language are valid classes to take instead of calculus (both demonstrate abstract thinking in equivalent difficulty to what calculus does).
Obviously a student hoping to major in economics, cs, or math would need to take calculus, so the OP should discuss choices with his/her daughter. Note that outside of âprofessionalâ majors such as engineering, teaching, or nursing, there are many paths to a job from a major - what matters is skills acquired and internships accomplished.
I agree with posters above: the most important thing you can do is help her find âgood fitâ matches and safeties that she likes and are affordable (always run the NPC). She shouldnât have just one dream school, especially not one such as Wes, which is reach for everyone. She should have a list with two affordable safeties she likes - often the hardest colleges to find, then 3-5 targets or matches where her scores are near the top 25% (some outside your region). Then only can she focus on Wes and other reaches.
Admission to Wes wonât hinge on taking calculus or not. If math and science arenât her thing, look at all other factors so that THESE are as strong as possible.
My son was placed in the âmiddleâ math class in sixth grade. He never took AP math. He scored in the 90th percenttile on the SAT. You have to consider that if a child is put in over their head in a math class especially at a young age they may get frustrated and loose confidence in their abilities. Being in the hardest class does not assure success- also being in the middle class does not mean failure.
Always listen to @MYOS1634 . MYOS is, IMO, the most knowledgeable person on all of CC. 