How to weigh academic rigor with teens stress

Applying to College
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OP, can your daughter ask around and see how hard Calc AB is at her school? How much work it is? How did students do in the class who had a similar experience to your D’s precalc experience? We tend to make decisions based on what the class is like at OUR school, not what people suggest online. Some APs require less time than others. Some have better teachers.

After asking around, it’s then up to your daughter to be very honest with herself about whether she can take it on. Our S19 didn’t take honors social studies for the last two years but feels like he can add it for junior year after talking to friends who are a year older than him with similar class loads.

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@lindagaf: that’s very kind of you. I don’t think I am, but I try to offer the best advice I can based on knowledge and experience. :slight_smile:

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And as always, so much will be dependent on the teacher (how good, how demanding etc.).

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I have never heard of regular calculus but if there is such a class that is not AP, I would recommend that.

As for calculus worship - it’s not cc that does it, it’s the admissions officers at selective universities. They worship calculus, and an AO from a selective university said, the first math class they look for in the transcript is calculus, not stats, or even a course harder than calculus. They start with senior year, if they don’t find it, they look at junior and so on. If they see stats instead of calculus, that’s a red flag. If they see pre-calculus honors as the last course, they’re not going to be as concerned as the applicant took math courses (algebra-geometry-algera 2/trig-precalc) all four years to their ability and hopefully did well in them.

I don’t know how to reinforce this point, if an applicant has an option to take calc or stats and takes stats, it will be a negative on the app. And philosophy and a language is not going to replace it. They love that calculus stretches students to learn about limits, series, infinite sums etc., that another course is not going to do, at least in their view.

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@theloniusmonk do you think it matters if the applicant took AB Calc rather than BC?

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@suzyQ7 I think we need to work on finding good safety’s. she has plenty of reaches and targets that she likes but at the moment I don’t think she would be happy at what we have for safeties. Money factors in here. We were thinking of Bard as a safety, and she would be happy there, but I don’t think it would be a financial safety. That throws a whole other monkey wrench in.
As for rigor and her other courses for next year: she is aiming for 3 AP classes. She will have AP Lit and AP Psych. She has an earth science, try as I might I can’t talk her into an AP science. She will take a fourth year of her language and would love to do AP in it but it is not offered. That brings us to math. She had planned all along to do APStats in math but then we visited Wesleyan. (Glad we did. Guidance counselor not helpful with this). She is also interested in Tufts, Vassar,Barnard so they will likely prefer calculus too.
Oh and she will major in humanities. Did I mention this initially? Got SATs back yesterday and she got 730 in math portion so she can handle the concept
As for struggling, she is not struggling with anything academically. She is just exhausted, overwhelmed and not happy. Thankfully school is almost finished. I just don’t want her to end up in this place next year

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She’s struggling emotionally, so I’m glad you are aware of that and taking steps to help her.

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I suspect, given her interests, that AP Lit and AP Psych will not drain her. Agree that skipping an AP science makes sense. She should continue with her language and won’t be faulted for it not being AP if that’s not an option. (Tufts has a language requirement, btw. Not sure about the others.) This all sounds good.

Fwiw, DS ran into several of the same accepted students at Bard and Earlham. Not sure if the latter hit your radar, but your D would almost certainly get merit there.

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My daughter took AP stats this year as a junior, and she slogged her way through it. I’m not sure if it was her, the subject, or the teacher, but it definitely was a lot more work than she was expecting. AP test scores are not in yet, but she took the class mostly to give her a better foundation in nursing school.

This coming year she is taking AP Calc AB (our school only offers AB), because she likes math and she likes the teacher, who taught her honors pre-calc class this year. She is also taking a dual-enrollment physics class that she is looking forward to. Other than that she is taking college prep Spanish (after deciding against AP) and a couple semester-only classes to fill her schedule. She frontloaded her first couple years so much she had to find some classes to fill her schedule that wouldn’t break her.

And … she should have two study halls this year. She is thrilled. I’m fine with it, because those two classes above will create a lot of work for her. I notice a difference in her during the school year and during the summer - she is a different kid. She laughs a lot more, and is more patient with our entire family. In retrospect, I might not have let her have the Year from Hell (sophomore year) where she had no study hall or lunch, and had to eat in her Spanish class.

I only have one more year with her home. I want both of us to enjoy it.

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Here’s a related question for all of you…how many hours of extracurricular a week do you think is reasonable, if your child has an academically demanding schedule? Does it make a difference that it will be senior year?

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@melvin123 - no difference between Calc AB or BC, though it wouldn’t hurt to call the admissions office to clarify.

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@melvin123 There is no one answer fits all for EC hours…it depends entirely on the person including how quickly he/she works (ex. gets through homework, projects), how well he/she organizes and uses time, and how well he/she can manage academically when when busy with ECs etc. The number of ECs that was “reasonable” was different for my S and my D.

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My son was not interested in social studies and wanted more time to participate in the boy scouts and swimming so for 3 years he took level 3 social studies. His senior year he took AP Psychology and got an A. He applied ED into rice University. He also took honors english instead of AP lit. He is a math science kid. He did want to make sure he got 9-10 AP classes to show riger. Basically he took a harder and harder curriculum each year. His guidance counselor said he would not be able to get into a top school. If he did not take the hardest program. He had to weigh his extracuricular along with his classes. If he made it too hard then it would of been harder to finish his extracurricular. I am glad on how he did it. He made sure though Junior and senior year to prove he can take two sciences an two math classes.4 ap junior year 5 senior year plus one more honors science. He also to AP english senior year and got an A. Basically he proved he could do it. It was a risk he took. He ended up with 10 AP classes in his schedule. It was a risk he took, but he was also applying to safeties just in case. Now looking back he would of take social studies level 4 junior year since it seemed he had time.

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@happy1 I think I poorly phrased my question.

I’m trying to get a handle on expectations of selective colleges for hours devoted to ECs. We all know what the grades and SAT/ACT requirements are, and we all know they want to see ECs. Of course the more stellar the better, and the more reflective of you the better. What I was trying to gauge was whether there is any kind of expected hours range for selective college admissions. For example, I assume if a candidate only had 2 hours worth of ECs a week, a selective school would question what the candidate did with his/her time and would look poorly on this. I’ve also read about some crazy numbers of hours that kids have reported and my first thought is that either the kid doesn’t sleep, skips school or is lying.

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AP Stats was a complete waste for my son. Stressed him out, almost like learning a new language. Doesn’t count for much unless he was a business major.

In lieu of AP Calc, could the OP’s daughter take a semester of calculus at a local county college, on her own schedule?

And one thing about AP classes, be careful that they are actually harder, because my children’s school has honors versions of certain courses, and the honors and the AP versions are IDENTICAL except that the honors class does not have to take the AP test.

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@swtaffy904 - contrary to what some say calculus is NOT mandatory for a non-STEM student.

Like @hopefulmom123 - I’m the parent of a kid who did quite well in college admissions with only 3 years of high school math, nothing beyond advanced algebra. My D matriculated at Barnard, after turning down spots at Chicago & Berkeley. That was some years ago – but I don’t think the colleges would care about her math prowess (or lack thereof) any more today than they did a decade ago.

It would have been a problem if DD had presented herself as a potential STEM major, but she didn’t. She applied to colleges as a potential Russian or linguistics major with very strong writing skills.

Top colleges admit lopsided candidates – and they do so all the time. They also admit students based on perceived strengths. Obviously, having calculus on the transcript isn’t going to hurt any student – but it isn’t going to make or break an application either. The ad coms are looking for consistency.

The truth is that it is highly unlikely that one course will make the difference on your daughter’s application, unless she decides she wants to attend a college that specifically requires that course. The colleges are looking at the application as a whole, in the context of the overall academic record, test scores, and the student’s demonstrated goals and interests:

You wrote:

I think that is a mistake. You are the parent, you should be “lobbying” for the path that is best for your daughter’s emotional health and development-- not adding to the stress. (If you “lobby” for AP Calc, you are piling on more stress - exactly the opposite of what you said your concerns were in your OP).

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First off, Calculus is not a requirement even for stem majors if your school doesn’t offer it. The issue here is that the OP’s daughter wanted to take stats over calculus, so I think she’s comfortable with three APs her senior year. In that case, calculus would be the choice, since one of her top schools, Wesleyan, recommends it, even for non-stem majors. I agree that students are taking too may APs these days, colleges imo have a limit of maybe 7-8 as rigorous, after that it’s diminishing returns, if you will. If three APs are too much, I would recommend dropping AP Psych and take another non-honors elective, for less stress during senior year. As for lopsided candidates, Wesleyan’s 25-75 range for SATs are 700-770 for each section, that’s not lopsided at all, that’s a pretty tight distribution. Yes they will admit students with 800 reading/600 math but that would be an outlier for them. They’re obviously getting a lot of candidates with 800 reading/700 math.

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If she’s good in math, I’d recommend that she not avoid AP Calc AB. Some some tippy top schools do expect it (And when they say a class is recommended, take it as a soft requirement unless there is some sort of scheduling conflict or there is some other reason not to take a class. In these instances, rigor can be shown in similar types of classes and/or by showing passion and rigor in another area of study.)

If your D is not a big fan of science, I she shouldn’t take an AP science class, esp. one with a lab component, as they tend to be pretty work intensive.

And yes, there are exceptions to the need to heed recommendations. One or two of the colleges that D17 applied to had “recommended” four years of science, but she chose not to take a science in her senior year. Left to her own devices, she would not have taken a math class either, but she was applying to reach schools and chasing after big scholarships and she didn’t want to take herself out of the running for them. So she ended up taking a compromise position – she took an advanced (honors, not AP) math class (linear algebra) in her senior year but no science. (She had taken Calc AB in her junior year, selecting the less rigorous AB over the more intense BC Calc class). She also sought greater balance in her senior year by only taking 5 classes instead of 6.

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From the OP:

I don’t know how “saw some literature” from Prestigious U has now been converted into: “, calculus would be the choice, since one of her top schools, Wesleyan, recommends it.”

My kids got literature from all sorts of schools, including Ivies, that they decided against applying to, for various reasons, including that the didn’t like something or other about particular recommendations or requirements. That the kid has visited Wesleyan does not mean that the kid daughter needs to reshape her senior year to please Wesleyan. She has the options of considering other schools with more flexible admissions policies.

The OP also wrote:

The OP is mistaken in her assumption about Barnard. I know, given that my daughter entered Barnard with no math above advanced algebra (3rd year high school math). Barnard has holistic admissions standards and is remarkably vague when it comes to actual course work: “For this reason, you should acquire a strong foundation in high school, taking courses from the core academic subjects: math, science, English, history, and foreign language. Do your best to take the most rigorous classes available to you in which you can do your best work.” https://admissions.barnard.edu/apply-barnard/faq

Bottom line is that Barnard is more humanities-focused, and their admission standards reflect it.

I don’t know about Tufts or Vassar.

But the OP said she was concerned about her daughter’s stress and mental health.

So yes, the OP can say tell her daughter that if she has her heart set on Wesleyan, she ought to take calculus.

I’m just saying that the daughter will be fine if she takes the courses she wants to take and then looks for colleges that
are good fits for her profile and interests. There are plenty of them.

And if Wesleyan wants calculus and other colleges have more flexible admission recommendations – then the kid (and parent) needs to figure out whether the goal is “get into Wesleyan” or “have a good life.”

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If an admission officer told you the first thing s/he looked for was calculus, s/he was either 1)very idiosyncratic or 2) trying to provide you with an element that’s make sense to an audience s/he knew would consider this reassuring doe their progeny, all of whom were likely on track for calculus.
Just like all-humanities-ap’s wouldn’t be expected from a kid with a clear stem profile, calculus and AP science are not expected from a humanities kid. Sure there are kids who don’t quite know and for these calculus AB is a good choice, with among the 6-8 AP’s representatives from various areas.
And yes AP foreign language, philosophy, etc, absolutely ‘equals’ calculus for admissions. You’ll find examples at all top LACs where a kid with a strong humanities and social science background will be preferred over yet another kid who took calculus.
It’s important to demonstrate maximum rigor in area of strength and/or purported field of interest.
For OP’s daughter, the expectation would be something like AP English language, AP lit, apush, AP Euro or world, AP foreign language or level 4 (perhaps accelerated through dual enrollment and pushed to college level 4 or even 5 - Tufts especially), then picks from AP gov or econ (any combination of the 4 semester units), AP stats, APES or an elective science, perhaps AP art, art history, music theory if offered, college-level humanities classes if possible (especially philosophy.) Total 6-8 AP’s or dual enrollment classes.
(AP psychology and AP Human geography count as indicating interest but are ap-lites so don’t especially indicate rigor.)
To me, the problem with the schedule is not stats, but rather that there’s only one serious humanities AP on it + foreign language.

The real way it’s done at most privates is not ‘look at transcript for calculus’ . Typically a student worker summarizes in a card key information, IE., are there 5 academic classes each year? 5 honors or AP per year? All five core areas through junior year? (The officer will then check for details, especially Senior year picks reflecting an emerging interest in a field, or continuing to prove general, wide ranging interests -both OK.) All three from bio, chem, physics, plus one? Foreign language through level 3? 4? AP? English and Math all 4 years ?(and at that point, they look at what type of math and how that coordinates with the purported major - a student who wants a stem major and stopped at algebra2 would likely not get through unless they had extenuating circumstances. Starting high school in Algebra1 and finishing in honors pre-calculus would be seen as strength. For a strong junior who finished pre-calculus, Senior choice between calculus (H or AP or dual enrollment) and stats (AP or dual enrollment) would be matched with major area of interest. The adcoms would spend perhaps one or two minutes on the transcript, completing the summary card.
If intellectual interest and rigor have been established, they move to the rest of the application.

I honestly think it’s silly to go through major stress due to one reach college where odds of admission are by definition very low.
It’s much more important to find 3-5 colleges with 40+% acceptance rates that are affordable.

@swtaffy904 : Bard is not a safety due to acceptance rates.
Tufts and Wes are reach for everyone.
Added difficulty : New England LACs are much more competitive for girls than for boys.
If she’s interested in LACs, she would need to look outside that area. Macalester for instance may be more accessible than NESCAC colleges of a similar caliber.
Check out Muhlenberg, Agnes Scott, Beloit, Earlham, Ohio Wesleyan, Wooster, Lawrence, St Olaf, Drake, Knox, Elizabethtown, Goucher? Some of those should be definite safeties.

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