<p>^ Oppositional Defiant Disorder. It’s the predilection to say “NO!” to the requests and guidance of authority figures.</p>
<p>Happymom, I had to laugh about the “visually oriented” spin. </p>
<p>A relative was once bemoaning the fact that her husband never closed his 12’ of closet doors in the bedroom. I told her, “It’s simple. If he closed the doors, he wouldn’t own any clothes.” </p>
<p>I will admit to being visually oriented myself.</p>
<p>An old friend of mine is a hoarder (I think that’s what she is). When I was in her home a few months, it was bad. There were narrow paths that you had to walk thru. Every surface was covered with piles, papers, magazines, books, newspaper clippings, etc. I really had no idea how she knew where things were. Since then, she had told me that her H was really getting on her case and that she was slowly cleaning things up.</p>
<p>A couple of weeks ago, I was at her home again and it is WORSE (I didn’t even think that worse was possible!!) She has teenagers and I wonder what they must think. Surely they can’t ever have anyone over. Right? </p>
<p>She called me today and again said that her H is getting “nasty” about it. Heck, I’d be more than nasty. This theme of her H being very angry keeps coming up every few days. She keeps telling him that she’s “too busy” with other things, but he’s not buying it. </p>
<p>I think the problem is that her home is at the point of no return. I can’t even imagine how long it would take her to get even ONE room cleaned up. From her words today, it sounds (to me) that her H is on the verge of really blowing up. REALLY blowing up. To me, he seems like the type to silently seethe for awhile before he blows. And, now it seems that he’s on the verge of blowing. I don’t know if he’d divorce her, but he has threatened to just start throwing stuff into trashbags and dumping it. </p>
<p>I don’t know if I should gently say something since I do sense that her H is at the end of his ropes. I know it’s none of my business but she is a good friend (smart, professional, two grad degrees). She’d be devastated if her H walked out. I just don’t think she sees the signs that he’s at his wit’s end. </p>
<p>I’ve offered to help her (and other friends have, too), but frankly I have no idea where to even start! However, I think if she spent 30 minutes a day, eventually she’d see some progress.</p>
<p>Could you talk to the husband and get him to understand that she has an illness? He may not get that.</p>
<p>VH - One characteristic of hoarders is that they, in their own minds, “don’t have a problem.” So if the H is insisting something be done about conditions in the house, well, he’s being unrealistic, unreasonable, and abusive. Been there. After fifteen years of that nonsense I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way to manage such situations is with love and determination.</p>
<p>IMHO, it sounds like Mom2CollegeKids’ old friend’s H is lacking determination … and running out of love.</p>
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<p>If she’s a true hoarder, she really doesn’t want to make progress. The act of getting rid of things provokes major anxiety. Some of these people would rather lose a husband (or wife or kids) than part with their junk. It’s really sick.</p>
<p>I’ve heard the phrase “I’m working at it” weekly for 17 years. And the house always, only got worse. I feel sorry for the families- at least when my mom went out of control she only hurt herself by it on a daily basis. I am stuck with the house clean out, but it’s at least doable with her gone.</p>
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<p>Abusive? Really? I don’t think so. Seems to me that she’s the one who is being abusive, even if it is mental illness that is making her do it.</p>
<p>In her own mind she may not have a problem, but clearly she DOES have a problem, and she is imposing it on other people.</p>
<p>^ Sorry for the confusion … I meant “in her own mind he’s being unreasonable and abusive.” Because if she thought he was being reasonable she’d work toward a solution, wouldn’t she?</p>
<p>Ah! 
[10 char]</p>
<p>I understand that that’s her POV. My point was that the husband needs to understand that she has a serious illness – not that she’s being lazy or obstinate. He might deal with her differently (and, perhaps, more productively) then.</p>
<p>From what I’ve seen and heard, the only way you can deal “productively” with a hoarder is if they acknowledge the problem and agree to intensive therapy. When a hoarder is challenged, they can get extremely belligerent. Just go in and forceably take their stuff, and they can go off the deep end.</p>
<p>This is why I said that even though I don’t take divorce lightly, I don’t think there would be any other alternative for me if DH became a true hoarder and wouldn’t agree to get help. I just couldn’t live the way many spouses of hoarders have to live, and most of the time it just gets worse and worse and worse over time. And if there are kids involved-well, that’s definitely the deal breaker.</p>
<p>I (OP here) realize that some people do have quite serious problems with hoarding that interfere with their ability to live their lives. I don’t know if my much milder hoarding impulse is qualitatively the same, just quantitatively different, or of a different kind altogether. But I realized tonight that I have two thoughts that conspire to “make” me keep things. The first is that I might someday need this thing, whatever it is. And the other is that it is wrong to throw things away. While she was home this summer, D told me to get rid of the comforter she had used for the first three years of college - this one has a few small rips and stains, and was not expensive at all (I think on the order of $25 at Target). Would normal people be able to just toss this in trash without giving a lot of thought to whether there might be some use for it - maybe it could be used as rags, maybe the humane society could use it, maybe I should keep it just in case we ever have a lot of people sleep over and need extra blankets (of course we already have a lot of extra blankets) . . .</p>
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<p>You’re thinking that her big problem is inability to come up with a plan to clear out the stuff. What’s hard to see is that the accumulation of stuff is a symptom, not the disease. Well-intentioned offers to help only address the symptom and won’t help in the long run, or probably even in the short run. Her H’s threats and anger are counter-productive at best. The underlying emotional issues have to be dealt with first, or concurrently with the cleanup, and it sounds like in your friend’s case a mental health professional needs to get involved.</p>
<p>aimsie, the answer to your question, IMO, depends where you are in life.</p>
<p>When my kids were little, I probably would have kept the old comforter. They could use it to make a fort, they could use it to sleep on outside, etc. Now, however, the kids are gone; it’s just DH and me. I would have no reason to keep the comforter. I’d take it to the humane society and let them use it for the puppies. I wouldn’t want to take up valuable space in my house keeping something that’s old and ratty. </p>
<p>But I realize, as I’m answering you, that one of my goals is to have my house clean and open feeling. I want to be able to find things in a closet without having to pull everything else out. All that makes my life more comfortable and relaxing. That is more important to me than holding onto something that may never be useful.</p>
<p>I agree that her H doesn’t see the issue as a sickness. He sees it as laziness. He’s the type who works full-time and spends a good part of his weekends fixing things around the house and taking care of the yard. So, it annoys him that she spends nearly all of her “non work” time pursuing personal interests (book clubs, women’s clubs, prof clubs, gym, running, shopping, etc). She works part-time as a RN, so she should have time to do home chores. </p>
<p>It’s kind of the reverse of what many two-career couples face where the wives are complaining that they work “two jobs” while the H is a couch potato at home. (lol).</p>
<p>I agree that she probably doesn’t want help and that she doesn’t see the problem. I’m also dumbstruck that she doesn’t mind strangers or visitors seeing her home. She refinanced her mortgage and wasn’t the least bit embarrassed to have the appraisers come thru her home. All of us would rather die first. </p>
<p>I agree that she views her H’s comments or threats as “abusive”. When she was out of town recently, her H called her up and said that he was going to start throwing things away. She was outraged and threatened to have have him talk to a marriage counselor. He backed down, which I think was a mistake because if he showed up to a session with a few pics of their home, I can’t imagine a therapist saying that he needs to just shut up and live with it. I would imagine that the therapist would want her to attend private sessions to get over this need to keep everything.</p>
<p>What helped me get over my own “keep it, it might be useful someday” tendencies was finding several charities that call regularly to schedule pick ups. We’ve lived all over the country, and this area is the first place where charities do that. Or maybe this is the first place we lived long enough to find charities with trucks?</p>
<p>I bag/box stuff to give to charities constantly as I clean the house. I have a spot in the garage where I put everything that could possibly be reused, and I always have at least one bag to donate when they call. For some reason, it is mentally easier to have a permanent “donate” spot, and to move those things to the porch for the truck to pick up than it is to load stuff into the car and drive it to Goodwill. </p>
<p>I have moved from the years of “keep it for the next kid or some future project” to “free at last!” … Nobody is ever making another Pinewood Derby car! Pass that little bag of weights and wheels on! (Still sentimental enough to keep the cars the boys made, though. They can throw those out if they want to someday.) </p>
<p>My husband is a keeper and collector. He also likes to buy in bulk. It is a juggle to keep his stuff contained to a reasonable area. Thankfully, our house is just average sized, because he has limited space.</p>
<p>With one of us purging and one of us still collecting, it makes for an interesting dynamic.</p>
<p>DS moved out a year ago but some of his stuff didn’t.
I’ve seen DH eying the half empty bedroom.</p>
<p>I need to repurpose it pronto so HiS stuff doesn’t start mushrooming into it.</p>
<p>My mother-in-law was a semi hoarder. She never threw out anything. She collected tin pie plates, they were stacked sky high on her stove. She had every kitchen gadget and appliance. She had tons of clothes with the price tag still on. Stacks of sewing magazines from the 70-80’s. Bins full of yarn. She even made a ton of jewelry but kept it stacked in plastic containers and never wore it or gave any of it away. Once when she was in the hospital, I started to clear some of it away, so that she would have better floor space to navigate and she was not so happy. Even after her husband died some 5yrs prior, her bedroom was the same. His armoire with all of his jewelry, toiletries and clothes were still present. When we were cleaning out her house, there were things under every bed new in the box. I always feel hoarders are stuck in a time frame that was a happier time for them and they can’t get past it and are afraid of the future.</p>
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<p>My MIL was the same way. When she died and we were cleaning out the house, we found my FIL’s stuff still hanging in the closet. He had been dead for 14 years by that point.</p>