I am in shock-orlando terror attack

Parent Cafe
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DAP, I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make, but I think we’ve all seen many pictures and heard many words spoken by the loved ones of those killed, as well as survivors. It has been brought home vividly how, despite the advances the LGBT community has made, they still – as one advocate put it yesterday – have a target on their backs. That point is driven home by pieces of garbage like HB2.

As far as being the next "relatives of killed’ group, I was heartened to see statements yesterday from leaders of both the LGBT community and the Muslim community, as well as the NAACP, that they need to stand together to resist the bigotry which puts all of them at risk.

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@1dreamer Here’s the timeline from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooting-timeline/
The shooting started outside the club, an eyewitness stated that the first person shot was a valet parking cars. Some people say he was at the club earlier partying.

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@3scoutsmom Thanks. That explains it. I had not seen this previously and thought I saw someone interviewed say the shooting started inside at the bar, but I think there was a lot of misinformation in the beginning and we’re just learning the full details.

MiamiDap, I have sympathy and compassion for all innocent victims of discrimination and hate. That would include not only the victims in Orlando as well as their families and friends, but a CC member’s cousin who wears a hajib and was spit on today by a stranger as described in post 274. For me, it’s not an either/or. It’s about standing up for what it right and against what is wrong.

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@scout59 That is so painfully sad. "Drew"s mother’s pleas were so compelling. He was her only child. At least she has closure :frowning:

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Mds and his gf spent Saturday at the Pride festival in D.C. and my heart did a bit of a flip flop thinking “what if”.

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@musicprnt

you posted a long post but I’m not really sure what the point is… are you comparing “Christian” sub saharan Africa with the “Christian” United States?

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I know you’ll have a questionable statistic from the internet to back this up, but the laws do not back it up.

LGBT persons would rather live in Afghanistan, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc than Brazil? doubtful.

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My hair stylist wears a hijab but neither of her two adult daughters do. We’ve discussed why she chooses to wear one but her daughter’s don’t. >>>>>>>>>>>

It’s a choice they make around age 13, per Syrian Muslim sister friends of mine, one who is uncovered and three who have chose to cover.

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^ maybe for Syrian Muslims? From my discussions they didn’t have to make the choice at a specific age. She actually told me she doesn’t believe her daughter’s should wear hijab because neither are willing to make the religious commitment the wearing of the hijab signifies. My stylist is quite religious -she often goes and prayers when I’m just sitting waiting for color to be rinsed out.

She had a very moving FB post today and a link to ‘Muslims United for Pulse Victims.’ for donations to the victims and families of yesterday’s massacre. Already at $46k donated.

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Second moderation reminder to stay away from making gun control the issue.

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@soccerguy315:
You made the point about how Christianity was better for gays than Muslims, and I pointed out that in many Christian countries, places in Africa, Russia, heavily 'Christian" countries, how gays fare as badly as they do in the Muslim countries you cite for being hateful towards gays (and they are), the reality is that Christianity has not necessarily been much of a friend to gays. In the US Christian extremists, the Christian dominionists, who may represent about 25 million people, believe that the constitution should be amended to basically make biblical law above the law, and they would stone gays to death under that. Evangelical ministers have routinely called for things like gays and lesbians to be put into concentration camps, you think that is any better? Up until 2003, in many states you could be convicted and sent to jail for having sex with a same sex partner, in some of them they hadn’t actively prosecuted people, in Texas they did, and you could end up with several years in Jail and be put on the sex offender list basically for being gay or lesbian…that was 13 years ago…and did you know that at least one Supreme Court justice wrote that the state had an interest in promoting ‘traditonal morality’ (which given his faith, and that of those passing these laws, was not Judaism or Islam, they were supposedly Christians).

Not to mention that in many places in this country, you can be fired, you can be made to leave your dwelling, you can have your sexuality used against you in a court of law to prejudice a jury against you (there was a murder trial several years ago, where the prosecution brought up the defendent was gay, even though it had nothing to do with the trial, which was about someone who was killed during a robbery),and the judge allowed it, and the accused when convicted was given the death penalty, even though based on other similar trials he likely would not have gotten that penalty…

The reason it is better in the US is because we do have the concept of seperation of church and state, and as a result the extremist/conservative religious forces can’t get away with what they do in other countries, where religious groups still have tremendous power. The same religious types who hate gays in the US are also the same people who claim seperation of church and state shouldn’t exist, want to imagine what they would do if they could claim their religious views as law? I doubt it would be very tolerant or be very safe for LGBT people. The US is much better than many places in the world, compared to Africa or the muslim world it is a safe haven, but do we want to compare ourselves to those places? Are we going to say when it comes to LGBT people we stink less, or should we be a place that lives up to what we claim, that a basic right is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, something that isn’t always true for LGBT people here?

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The father now has issued an apology, and called it “an act of terrorism”. Yet dear old dad is apparently a homophobe, and yet he wonders where his son got it from? There is an interesting op ed piece in today’s NY Times, that is by a Muslim who is a producer for NPR, and they said that along with being vigilant that Muslims not be the victims of this as well, they also said that the community should be doing some soul searching, too, that they as a community have to come to grips with LGBT people and that simply saying “our teachings tell us to be tolerant” is not enough, that in the Muslim community LGBT people are ghosts, and that they might, just might, need to figure out how their faith can be reconciled to being LGBT, and in realizing that the fact that LGBT people are harshly treated by the teachings of their faith is a root cause of what happened in Orlando and elsewhere (the person who wrote it was quite eloquent).

Too, you only have to look at the words that are coming out of the Muslim world, many countries are denouncing the killing, but none of them are saying who the victims were, they send condolences to the families, but not one word of who the victims are and that it was wrong to kill them. In large part, it is because in many of those countries you can be put to death for being gay, or otherwise treated horribly, so they would never bring themselves to acknowledge that the people killed were mostly LGBT, because then they would have to admit they are human, it is the height of hypocrisy when people cite that as proof that Muslims see LGBT people as human (and I am talking those governments, not Muslims as people per se).

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That may depend on whether you are more worried about generic criminal homicides (much higher in Brazil) or specifically anti-LGBT violence and discrimination (probably much lower in Brazil).

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Need to get a national policy to run at the gunman…not away. Death tolls would be lower. Cowering in a bathroom stall makes. the killer’s goal too easy.

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“dominionists” … I will always associate that word with Canadians rather than as a(another) mere pejorative.

The Pilgrims take a lot of heat, but one thing they did that kind of rocked was establish that marriage (at least in Plymouth Colony) was a function of the civil government. Four hundred years later, it is very possible for a person to simultaneously 1) not “get” LGBT etc and 2) support the legal right to marry whomever (of legal age, no closer than 3rd or 4th or whatever cousin, of sound mind etc. etc.) and 3) still adhere to their faith.

Now, I don’t like football, in fact I dislike it but I’m not afraid of it and I certainly wouldn’t wish any harm on people who do like or play football. I can imagine - and hope - there are people who hold roughly the same attitude about Christians, Muslims, women, men, straights, gays.

Or maybe I’m wrong, and there is no middle ground and it really is necessary to vilify things I don’t understand. Man, I hope that isn’t the case.

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Yeah, because homicidal terrorists don’t drive cars.

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I don’t know about a national policy, but I agree that more people need to step up in a time of crisis. Of course, I know this is easier said than done, but what are the options really? You can’t wait for the police to arrive to save the day. It’s just not going to happen.

Perhaps we should be encouraging more people to take training for active shooter scenarios, which would include basic hand-hand combat tactics and other techniques to use if you are unarmed in those situations.

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Most every active shooter training focuses on hiding and getting out of the building, not engaging an armed assailant.

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Even the officer who engaged him retreated and waited for back-up.

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“Perhaps we should be encouraging more people to take training for active shooter scenarios, which would include basic hand-hand combat tactics and other techniques to use if you are unarmed in those situations”

Ew. No. I do not wish to live like this is a John Wayne movie.