<p>Gadad: Well said.</p>
<p>Irene, me too. I’d have trouble.</p>
<p>My daughters college (she’s a recent grad) has a morals clause and yes, kids can get kicked out for having sex. Principia College. One does have to be a Christian Scientist to attend. I believe that biology is one one of the most popular majors.</p>
<p>As I mentioned before, the goal is to find a school which is not extremely sexually liberal, not the school where absolutely no casual sex. It is a matter of critical mass of people who don’t participate in hookups. I think it is quite possible.</p>
<p>Something always puzzles me about these conversations: We never hear much from the parents of all the slutty boys and girls doing these terrible things. What do we think the explanation for that is?</p>
<p>(a) Some of us aren’t completely honest about our children’s behavior?
(b) Some of our children aren’t completely honest with us?
(c) There isn’t as much “hooking up” going on as people say?
(d) A little of all of the above?
(e) Bad parents don’t know how to use the internet?</p>
<p>I don’t think that even at the most “liberal” colleges, it is not possible to find such a critical mass.</p>
<p>Abstinence program failed because most PARENTS and MEDIA DO NOT CARE.</p>
<p><a href=“KIDS COUNT Data Center from the Annie E. Casey Foundation”>KIDS COUNT Data Center from the Annie E. Casey Foundation;
These states have a MUCH higher rate of births to girls 15- to 19 are you saying their parents don’t care?
Alabama
Arkansas
Lousiana
Mississippi
New Mexico
Texas</p>
<p>These states have the lowest rate of teen pregnancy- so do their parents care more?
Connecticut
Maine
Massachusetts
New hampshire
North Dakota
Vermont</p>
<p>I think the issue isn’t -
am I interested in telling other people what they can and cannot do in their bedroom-
but Will the people I share living space with have good manners?
Are they going to be showing their dangly bits in the hallway- or am I going to be able to confirm just how close a couple is at breakfast?</p>
<p>My daughter lived in a coed dorm for three years- and I was very comfortable visiting at any time & having her sister who is 8 years younger visit by herself ( or with a friend)-
However- I know other schools, may be more casual about dorm behavior.</p>
<p>Teen pregnancy is as much a function of demographics as “education,” which doesn’t seem to work in any event.</p>
<p>Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Miss., New Mexico, and Texas = High hispanic & african-american populations, for whom teen pregnancy is practically an epidemic. Teen pregnancy and absentee parenting beget teen pregnancy in the next generation, until the cycle is broken somehow.</p>
<p>The states in the second list are all much whiter and, with the exception of North Dakota, wealthier than those on the first.</p>
<p>Tikib, you really need to re-set you thinking, imo: as Marite points out, there is a critical mass of students whose social values and behavior are what you’re seeking at virtually every campus, even the best known “party schools” like UC Santa Barbara or Arizona State, to pick two from my region, let alone LAC’s with liberal reps like Wesleyan.</p>
<p>Your children will not be able to live their lives in a bubble, no matter what. Part of life is co-existing with things of which you don’t approve. Need to learn that in college if they haven’t already.</p>
<p>JHS, definitely B. Plus another option: the parents who know their kids are hooking up may avoid posting in this thread entirely. Most of my friends’ parents don’t know about their sexual habits (why should they?), even if they have an overall close, positive relationship. The parents often don’t seem to have any doubts about their children’s “innocence.”</p>
<p>Well, I just talked to my two Ss.
S1 noted a fair amount of hooking up while at Wes, but it was not the dominant trend, and it did not affect him.</p>
<p>S2 at H stated that 2/3 of his friends were in committed relationships (which does not mean these lasted all four years and beyond). A couple of people he knew engaged in hooking up. Either he is blinkered or the phenomenon can easily be avoided. Either way, it is not affecting him.</p>
<p>I avoid asking my kids about their love life. I trust them and I don’t want to know the details.</p>
<p>What about Carleton?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You would be better off in Minnesota at the state university than at Carleton if that is what you are looking for. But I’m sure there are students who share your values at every college in Minnesota. The question is always how much of other people’s behavior you want to let influence your children’s educational opportunities.</p>
<p>"We never hear much from the parents of all the slutty boys and girls doing these terrible things. What do we think the explanation for that is?</p>
<p>(a) Some of us aren’t completely honest about our children’s behavior?
(b) Some of our children aren’t completely honest with us?
(c) There isn’t as much “hooking up” going on as people say?
(d) A little of all of the above?
(e) Bad parents don’t know how to use the internet?"</p>
<p>I am the mother of a 15 year old who first had sex with her steady bf at the age of 14. I’m posting here under a different name than I usually use, because I don’t want the behavior of one of my children linked to my other child(ren) who I post about.</p>
<p>I was SHOCKED when I found out that DD had sex with her bf when they had been dating for 2 months, 2 months into her frosh year of hs. I thought they were always well chaperoned. I thought she had assimilated our values. I had no idea that the “nice” junior girls she was hanging around with on the jv team were all sleeping with their bf’s and thus D would think that was “normal” behavior for a hs student. I found out inadvertantly - a mom who heard a rumor told me about it. (She did told me with the best of intentions, she has daughters, she didn’t pass judgement on whether the rumor was true or not, but said, “If people were saying this about my daughter, I’d want to know.”) DD denied it at first, but then I overheard her talking to her bf so I knew it was true. When confronted she tearfully admitted that they had sex and cried, “It’s not like it is in the movies!” She said she did it because she was depressed that hs was so much harder than she had expected, and her previous group of girl friends had turned on her (that was definitely true) and she thought it would make her feel better. Then she told a friend about it, and the next thing she knew the whole school thought she was pregnant. She cried daily for two weeks. We ended up taking her to a psychologist, who told me, “Your daughter is a good kid. She’s a pleaser who never wants to disappoint anyone, so she didn’t tell you how unhappy she was because she thought she would let you down. Now that she’s in love and they’ve had sex… you can chain her in a closet if you want to, but if she wants to have sex she will find a way.” We considered forcing her to break up with bf, but he was like a lifeline to DD since her previous “friends” had turned on her, and I decided that forbidding her from seeing him would just make things worse. We also considered telling bf’s parents, but DD BEGGED us not to, saying they wouldn’t be as “understanding” as we were. I decided it was worth more to me not to have my daughter feel we had betrayed her. So… she continued to see BF and we didn’t tell his parents anything, but we were very strict about when and where they could be together.</p>
<p>After this happened I learned enough about AIM to read her IM’s. What I learned was shocking. I learned that DD was one of the very few kids in the hs who didn’t drink; also neither she nor anyone else considered her a “slut” because she was in a relationship with bf when they had sex. There is a lot more casual sex going on than I would have dreamed… most of it linked with alcohol. The guys are having a grand time; the girls pretend they don’t care, but they do. The girls also know which guys “respect” girls, and those are the guys they want to go out with. However, those girls who have engaged in casual sex (including oral) with more than a couple of guys are labelled as sluts and the good guys won’t date them, and these poor clueless girls can’t figure out why. It sounds like a stereotype, but this is what I learned from reading what kids write to each other when they think their parents can’t see it.</p>
<p>It’s been 9 months since all this happened, and dd and bf are still together, coming up on a 1 year anniversary. She has a new group of girlfriends who are worth 10 times what her former friends were worth; but she gets along with her former friends again. She doesn’t trust the former friends, but I can see that a part of her still wants them to like her since they are the “popular” kids. I’m not spying on DD’s conversations as much, but I do still peek occasionally. She tells me she & bf are not having sex anymore, but I know that’s not true - the psychologist was right. (I also know from my snooping that they always use condoms.) I finally gave up and am taking her to get bc pills. I have told her I do NOT approve of them having sex, but since they’re still together, IF that is what is going to happen I’d rather she be protected - and they’d STILL need condoms. She claims she just wants the pills to make her periods better.</p>
<p>I don’t see BF’s mother often, but I had the opportunity to sit and chat with BF’s mother last weekend. As I suspected, she has no idea they are sexually active. I didn’t tell her, but did say, “Don’t let them go for a walk when they’re at your house.” Her jaw dropped in shock, and she said, “They usually do…did your DD tell you something?” I said, “No, and I’m not telling you any details or how I know this, but in the future don’t let them go for a walk. And you did NOT hear this from me.” She just nodded. Later we were talking about kids drinking, and she said she knew her son didn’t drink because he’s an athlete and cares so much about his body he won’t even eat french fries. I decided not to tell her that her son DOES drink - to excess - and that it’s been a source of friction between him and DD, who worries about him.</p>
<p>So back to the quote from before. What about us parents? Well, a lot of parents are clueless. Had my friend not shared what she’d overheard, I’m sure I wouldn’t know that DD was sleeping with her BF. I wouldn’t have known she was lying to me, and I wouldn’t have resorted to “spying” to find out the truth. I wouldn’t know that most parents have no clue what their kids are up to. I gave up the idyllic notion that DD and I are “friends” and she’d open up to me about everything. I kept my spying secret, so that one day when she’s in her 20’s we WILL be friends. But I continue to peek when my intuition tells me something’s not right, because it enables me to head off serious problems - I can come up with legit reasons why she can’t go somewhere when I find out it’s not as kosher as DD is pretending. And when I do know that her plans are as innocent as she claims (which is most of the time… she IS a good kid) I let her go and know I don’t have to worry.</p>
<p>Most parents are clueless, they want to believe the best about their kids. Don’t bury your head in the sand. If you want to know if your kid is really as “good” as you think, read their text messages and learn to use AIMLogger.</p>
<p>As for the OP; all you can do is try to be sure your DD understands your values. You can’t keep her in a coccoon forever. I know I will not be able to control my DD when she goes off to college, and I’m not laboring under the illusion that she will stay “sweet and innocent” unless she’s corrupted by the evil people around her. I just hope I’ve set enough limits that she’s learned her lessons in a relatively safe way, and that she will be able to stand up for herself and behave as if she values herself and her body when she’s on her own in college.</p>
<p>Momneedsadvice - Thank you so much for posting.</p>
<p>I liked JHS"s post.</p>
<p>I also think your post is wonderful, Momneedsadvice.</p>
<p>The guys are getting away with murder (I’m the mom of two sons)–handsome devils at that, with great personalities. Your statement-“the girls are labeled as sluts, the good guys don’t date them” is absolutely true, imo. I hear my sons refer to girls as “sluts” all the time. This bothers me; but then I think: what the heck are these girls doing going on bc pills at age 15?? 
</p>
<p>I think my guys have a point there. (This is not in reference to your daughter–an entirely different case.)</p>
<p>The girls are being had. Pure and simple. Feminism has failed: girls must have a career, have kids, have a home, be perfect in every which way—skinny, great muscle tone, good in bed, Paris Hilton look-a-likes. The GUYS still call all the shots. So girls get to work like mad around the clock–what have we gained again?</p>
<p>“The girls PRETEND they don’t care, but they do.” Truest thing I’ve heard here in a long time.</p>
<p>No, we can’t be friends with our kids. We have to guide them . They are not adults yet.</p>
<p>I have a feeling your daughter will be just fine, momneedsadvice.</p>
<p>P.S. That friend was probably the best friend you ever had. :)</p>
<p>Thank you woody & hereshopping. I was afraid I was going to get slammed when I posted that. But I’ve learned too much the hard way in the past year not to tell other parents the truth.</p>
<p>I think I need to find that friend and thank her…</p>
<p>Remember that there is a big difference between casual sex in high school, where the average age is around 16, and casual sex in college, where the average age is around 20. They should not be thought of in the same way. The latter is sex between legal, consenting, and mature adults. The former is not and is often centered around issues of fitting in, insecurity, fear, notions of normality, etc. </p>
<p>Thanks for sharing, Momneedsadvice. I am sure that your daughter is not even close to the only daughter on this board who was having sex at a young age. Good for you for getting your daughter on birth control. Many of my female friends in college are struggling to pay for their birth control, going so far as to stop taking it when not having sex for a short period of time to save money. It must really mess up their cycles and hormones.</p>
<p>That was a very brave post, momneedsadvice. </p>
<p>Do you need advice? I have none, atlhough I did reflect that given all you know, perhaps it would be a more sane h.s. existence to tell your D you know everything and determine together to behave more like I read about among some parents in Scandanavian countries. The kids retire to their rooms with no more fanfare than if you had your brother and his steady girlfriend over for a weekend.
Then you could counsel her on health and feelings, as things occur in the next few years. She must feel very lonely, and it’s a shame you have to sneak and peek when you could just level it all and declare yourself a resource.
I really have no idea what I’m talking about, no personal experience in this, but it seems to me a shame to have so much of a wedge between you and your D for the next several years. If, however, you’re more comfortable with this current dance, no reason to change it.
Anyway, that’s my “advice” though I have no basis upon which to give it, except I feel for you.
Best wishes and thanks for an eye-opening posting.</p>
<p>Thanks also from me, momneedsadvice, although I have sons, not daughters.</p>
<p>But your story, painful as it is for you to tell, is what concerned me about the OP’s post. The OP seemed to imply that college was the time to be worried about one’s kid being subjected to an environment where promiscuity was prevalent. My understanding of the situation is that hooking up has become fairly common among high schoolers and maybe even middle schoolers. The 8th grade graduation dance seemed to me pretty sexualized. One contributing factor is peer pressure which young teens are far less able to resist than older teens. Wanting to be popular, succumbing to one’s boyfriend’s emotional blackmail, wanting to experiment, all these are factors that encourage early sexuality. Another, as reported in the NYT magazine article I read a year or two back, was sheer boredom.
Many arrive on college campuses already active, and already having engaged in casual sex. In fact, it may be easier to avoid the latter in college than in high school with their generally smaller community with less to do than in college. I also would think that an 18-year old who has not succumbed to peer pressure in high school may be able to hold on to his or her values even better in college.
Again, thanks for sharing your story. Good luck to you and your D.</p>
<p>
Well there’s an insupportable bit of tripe.
In the context of sex, feminism means that’s it’s okay to have sex. And that it’s also okay not to have sex. If young women are being Shanghaied or coerced into having sex and guys are still calling the shots, maybe it’s because they don’t have the confidence to define themselves and makes options as much as they might want.</p>
<p>The pre-feminist 1950’s, a glorious time in the minds of many that never was, still had the guys calling the shots; the double standard has not been eliminated today but it’s a hell of a lot tamer than it was back then. The guys were calling a hell of a lot more shots back then, too; everything from glass ceilings, to choices about jobs and careers, to even owning property in one’s own name. </p>
<p>One of the biggest learning experiences D had while studying in Eastern Europe was the jaw-dropping (to her) traditional pre-feminist attitudes pervading the society. She didn’t like it at all and how She Gets It when I say that today’s young women don’t realize how much they now take for granted has been carved out and wrested in the last generation or two.</p>
<p>But as to notions of sexual activity, nobody who doesn’t have their head in the sand should be shocked or otherwise flipped out by the amount of sexual activity. For graduating high school seniors, the overall number is somewhere between 50 and 60 percent. But a lot of parents in deep denial. When D was in high school, she was staggered by the complete cluelessness of so many parents, including those of “good kids,” who hadn’t a clue where there children were, who they were with, and what they were doing, to the point there kids would be out partying when the parents thought they were upstairs studying.</p>
<p>Imho, there are better ways of finding out what’s going on than reading IM’s and e-mails; cycles of sneaking & snooping don’t often lead to good outcomes on either side. I recommend driving a car pool. It’s amazing what the kids will talk about in front of the inanimate object, the driver.</p>
<p>Fwiw, I recall seeing a study released in the last year or two that correlated age of onset of sexual intercourse in women with ultimate academic achievement, i.e., graduate and professional degrees.</p>
<p>I think MNA’s post took guts but there was one line in there that made me wince: “It’s not like it is in the movies.” I think one of the best things that parents can do is to talk about sex realistically long before it’s an issue that’s already on a young woman’s (or young man’s) radar screen.</p>