<p>Marite, so often the case, nails a lot pretty well.</p>
<p>I agree that “sneaking and snooping” is not the best. I don’t do it all the time; only when I can sense that something isn’t adding up. I keep waiting for D to trust me with the truth. That day hasn’t arrived yet; I trust it will come one day. In the mean time, I’m not going back to flying blind.</p>
<p>I do see progress - she will talk to me in general about friends that do things she thinks are wrong (she never gives names, of course). I listen, ask questions about what she thinks, then share my opinion/values. Slowly I can see that she is absorbing it. And sometimes I read that she and friends are making nefarious plans, but if I wait a few days DD or the friend or both eventually realize it’s a stupid idea. She is beginning to make better decisions. I don’t expect to have to “peek over her shoulder” forever. </p>
<p>I have a hard time tolerating a few of my own former friends, who I know heard the rumors - actually, they’re the ones who told the friend who DID tell me - but they didn’t tell me. My daughter was friends with their kids for years, but it was more important for them to gossip and look down their noses than to tell ME what they heard so I could help my daughter. I run into them at sports events, and they are always so quick to brag about their kids and how well they’re doing. I just smile… they are so clueless. </p>
<p>Anyway, didn’t mean to hijack the OP’s thread! Sorry! Thanks for listening, I needed to get all this off my chest!</p>
<h1>160 - Wait–was this the Voice of God speaking? Always a pleasure.</h1>
<p>I’ll accept “an insupportable bit of tripe” as an “ad hominem.” </p>
<p>Since I turned 22 in 1971, and since I am a Female, long familiar with the era of the zipless f***, wow–imo, -some gentlemen here do not know whereof they speaketh.</p>
<p>I have also worked with young women in my resent middle-aged years. ;)</p>
<p>In addition to being the mother of two sons (aged 17 and 21 1/2), as previously mentioned.</p>
<p>Not to insult other posters there, TheDad. The Rules and all. ;)</p>
<p>While I appreciate MNA willingness to share not so pretty side of a child, I also would point out that while this culture bombards anyone with eyes or ears with sexual images- there are some people who just aren’t interested- & when their parents say that they know what their kids are doing or not doing- I think it is pretty smug for others to day " oh ho no you don’t".</p>
<p>But actually * yes, I do*</p>
<p>[those who don’t](<a href=“http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6533”>http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6533</a>)</p>
<p>[and those who do](<a href=“Loading...”>Loading...)</p>
<p>
Not blood likely. I didn’t attack you and you are free to maintain whatever believes you choose, on the basis of whatever evidence or experience you choose to credit. But I may do the same and the belief is insupportable tripe. No wonder I have a daughter attending a women’s college.</p>
<p>
And I have the experiences of women family members who variously managed a business in the Fifties, worked as probation officer, served as president of a private high school, and other occupations that were male-dominated at the time. I also draw upon the experiences of those women who earned their college degrees in the Fifties and Sixties, including some who were denied to take certain math and science courses in high school because they “weren’t appropriate” for women. The “lady” should not <em>dare</em>, in her ignorance about me, project said ignorance upon me; I know a damned sight more about the roots of feminism than she might suspect.</p>
<p>
Which I decline to take as evidence that “feminism has failed.”</p>
<p>
If you believe that I’ve insulted you, please feel free to use the “Report Post” function. I’ve actually declined to report some of the things you’ve thrown in my direction which were far more actionable. However, it’s your right. Go to it.</p>
<p>Emeraldkitty… your last link reminds me of the “Friends” phenomenon. I love that show - it was hysterical - but everytime I watch it in re-runs with my teens, it hits me what a poor example it sets for teens. It gives the impression that everyone has slept with a dozen or more people before they settle down, and casual sex is something to joke about. I tell my kids my values, then watch Friends as if the show is fine. No wonder kids these days are confused.</p>
<p>Nah. I’m not insulted. Really I was teasing. Actually I think a man lecturing a woman about feminism is rather amusing. :)</p>
<p>MNA, I was thinking about your post over dinner as it was quite compelling. One generalized observation and this is touchy enough that I want to make clear that it’s not a criticism of your parenting style but a broader societal problem: it really helps to raise children not to be “pleasers” dependent upon the approval of others. It’s hard work and it’s probably harder with some children than with others. And, as with alcohol consumption, it’s a phenomenon that unfairly has a worse effect on girls than boys. I’m not even sure that it’s possible to raise <em>all</em> children not to be “pleasers” and I’ll just say that we lucked out.</p>
<p>===</p>
<p>MM2, yes, the same thought crossed my mind I’d squirm with mortal embarrassment if I had sons referring to anyone as “sluts.” Boys need to be raised with as much a dose of feminism as girls do. </p>
<p>===</p>
<p>I ran this thread by D and TheMom over the dinner table and D asked, “If feminism is responsible for social ills, how come Smith College has a much lower incidence of “partying” behavior than Amherst and U/Mass?”</p>
<p>To which the Mom replied, “Don’t try arguing with people like that with facts.” She also noted that my alleged offense would be <em>ad femina</em>, not <em>ad hominem</em>. The jeering from the two household women about the notion “feminism is a failure” went on for at least five minutes during which I couldn’t get a word in edgewise.</p>
<p>lafa</p>
<p>The media can actually be very helpful-
not so much television
but over the years- I have used certain movies to provide a way to bring up topics that cold turkey would be too artifical.( and inspire less discussion)</p>
<p>But when we can discuss a character in the film and what else they might have done, or what could have happened, it can make some really good discussions- and it goes much better than when I trap them in the car and start firing questions at them ;)</p>
<p>( My d did like Friends- we talked about that aspect of it- as well as it was in NYC and most everyone was Caucasian?- lots to talk about with that show- I think she liked it to get tips on hair and clothes)</p>
<p>I am a teenage boy who engages in “hooking-up.” If you are curious, my parents don’t know anything about my “love life” (or whatever you choose to call it); nor do the parents of any of the girls I’ve “hooked up” with.</p>
<p>I use quotation marks around the term because I’m using it in a different context than it has been suggested in the rest of the thread. I have not had sex with any of these girls. This is really for a variety of reasons, some of them to do with my own maturity (or lack thereof… I generally treat girls pretty badly), but most of them to do with the fact that I’ve heard the same stories over and over again, both from girls that I’ve been romantically involved with and from my close platonic female friends.</p>
<p>The stories are all variations of the same situation. A party (or not), alcohol or drugs, a guy, and a sexual situation that got out of hand and out of their control. The aftermath is always the same too, the girls are too embarrased to tell their parents, too embarrased to tell even their friends (MNA, have you considered what your D isn’t saying over AIM?)… and then never seek help. For one girl, I was the first person they felt comfortable telling. For the rest, they were still quite clearly uncomfortable talking about it.</p>
<p>Its because I’ve heard these stories that I don’t even ask. In most of the stories, things got out of hand because she just didn’t know how to say “no.” I may not be the nicest guy in the world (I’m working on changing), but I don’t want to be one of those guys that causes that kind of psychological trauma.</p>
<p>I don’t know the statistics of the number of girls raped in high school, but I do know that some 1/4 of all women are survivors. </p>
<p>Just my experiences. If I was a parent, I’d be much more concerned about what my children weren’t telling their friends in a carpool or over AIM chats.</p>
<p>The thought of anyone calling feminism a failure is laughable in my opinion and only one who is looking at the world with blinders would write such a thing. To look at the pressure of women to be all while allowing men to call the shots (which, while not common, does happen) and ignore the progress made is ridiculous; I had a discussion about this with my female pediatrician while back (I’m a mechanical engineering major going into the aerospace field which spurred the conversation) and the advances made by women are astounding. Women are enrolling in universities in huge numbers, the presence of women in traditionally male-dominated fields is growing, the paygap is closing and this all came about only in the last fifty years or so. We have plenty of work left to do but that doesn’t mean that we should ignore any progress in the face of setbacks.</p>
<p>^^I thought it was pretty clear that my comments about feminism were in the context of sexuality. Of course women have made strides in the job market. That is not what MNA was talking about, since her daughter is 15.</p>
<p>And if you are into “facts,” I can tell you it’s a fact (as MNA) said, that boys still call girls who sleep around “sluts,” or “whores.” I don’t think it’s respectful to these girls; but on the other hand, they are not respecting themselves very much either. In that regard, nothing has changed since the beginning of time. Therefore, that aspect of feminism (the zipless ****) has, for some girls/young women, done more harm than good. Post #170 sums this up pretty well from a young person’s viewpoint. Since I’m female, I’ll add a smiley here, in case some think I am overstepping my place, by expressing a strong point of view. :)</p>
<p>I just noticed the “people like that.” By this I take it you mean people with a different point of view from yours?</p>
<p>Maybe my smiley face should be pink, come to think of it. Less threatening and more fitting for a woman than the yellow.</p>
<p>"And if you are into “facts,” I can tell you it’s a fact (as MNA) said, that boys still call girls who sleep around “sluts,” or “whores.” </p>
<p>No, it is not a fact. My boys have never said a demeaning thing about another woman or girl. Neither has my husband. They were not raised to judge and criticize others, and don’t talk about others in such a manner. Never.</p>
<p>Of course, your boys would never say such things. However, I work with kids and I hear it all the time. It is difficult to engage in a discussion when people (again–for some reason that is beyond me) refuse to give credence to viewpoints and realities which differ from their own.</p>
<p>Ever hear the word “ho” ??</p>
<p>Only by Santa, ho, ho, ho. Isn’t he adorable? Oh also, ho, ho, ho and a bottle of rum.</p>
<p>"Of course, your boys would never say such things. However, I work with kids and I hear it all the time. It is difficult to engage in a discussion when people (again–for some reason that is beyond me) refuse to give credence to viewpoints and realities which differ from their own.</p>
<p>Ever hear the word “ho” ??"</p>
<p>They don’t hereshoping, just as I don’t say the things you say. Perhaps that is why.</p>
<p>In terms of sexuality, there’s a difference between girls hooking up casually with guys after a night of partying and girls having a sexual relationship with a steady boyfriend. </p>
<p>Someone at Smith or any girls college would have less opportunities for random sexual encounters on a nightly basis (with guys, that is), so yes, I’d expect to see less “wanton” behavior there.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, there are young women who equate expressing their sexuality with giving it away every Thursday night to the cute guy she met on University Avenue. That, IMO, is NOT what the feminist movement was about. And guys do look down on girls who do that, make disparaging comments about them, and generally do not take them seriously as candidates for long term relationships. Who really wants a long term partner who goes around the block with near strangers on a regular basis?</p>
<p>It has become more <em>acceptable</em> for girls to have casual sex with many partners. Is that a good thing? You betcha- for the guys! As far as the girls are concerned- they lose their self respect and their health.</p>
<p>Doubleday, boys loose their self respect and health, also. It isn’t a one way street.</p>
<p>My experience today observing the younger set, is that the girls are OFTEN the aggressors, not the males. Not in all instances, but often.</p>
<p>However, one should not call them a slut or whore, and not all GENTLEMAN do.</p>
<p>Doubleday, boys loose their self respect and health, also. It isn’t a one way street.</p>
<p>True, but young women have far more long lasting and life threatening effects from having multiple sex partners than men. However, both do face risks, but the highest risk stakes are faced by women.</p>