@Consolation:
“I don’t either. But there are other lives in the law.”
. . . most of whom pay far less well than Big Law and can’t really justify 3 years of full-pay law school from a purely cost-benefit perspective.
“Sure. But there is a lot of room between “a lot of money” and “fully funded or worthless,” as there is daylight between “YHS law school or don’t bother” and “most JDs.” Are you seriously suggesting that it is literally not worth going to, for example, Chicago, U VA, Georgetown, Northwestern, and Cal? Really???”
If you believe (as I do) that the Big Law life kind of sucks, and Big Law is the best you can do if you go to those schools, then what conclusion would you draw? Certainly not that paying 6-figures for those schools is worth it. You could argue that paying 5-figures for those schools is worth it, though that’s not too far from fully-funded.
“If the money were there, and I were OrchidBloom, I would spend it on Yale rather than wait for some completely hypothetical grad school, unless I got a full ride to another really outstanding school.”
Which was the point I was making (roughly speaking). Health field career (and maybe a few other paths) excepted.
You know, there are lawyers all over the country making $150K+ per year who did NOT go to HYS and have a very nice life without working incredible hours for Wall Street law firms as associates.
You seem absolutely to define the “best” in strictly financial terms. Yes, I am against racking up crippling debt, but limiting the acceptable law schools to THREE and the acceptable careers to STEM is asinine, frankly.
@Consolation:
“You know, there are lawyers all over the country making $150K+ per year who did NOT go to HYS and have a very nice life without working incredible hours for Wall Street law firms as associates.”
And when did they start out?
If you’ve noticed, the law market has changed quite a bit in recent years.
I actually know someone who fits your description perfectly, but if she was graduating from (her not very elite) law school now rather than a decade ago (as was the case), I would not lay good odds on her ending up where she is now.
These days, almost no law school (or PhD program) is worth spending 6 figures on. The only reason I exempted YHS is because those schools may provide their grads with opportunities outside of law (like consulting or startups, though that may not be the greatest path to those fields, so I’m close to writing off almost all law schools).
BTW, I didn’t say that only STEM is acceptable; I did say that only free (or close to it) is acceptable. There are actually some funded humanities PhD programs (and more funded social science PhD programs) as well as some JD programs where you can get full-tuition/full-ride scholarships. Get in to one of those, and at worst, you lose only your time/opportunity cost. Pay a lot or go in to a lot of debt for a PhD/JD program, and you may lose a lot more.
Wow, thanks for all of the comments! I did not actually realize that most science PhDs are fully-funded. In all honesty, I will most likely end up choosing to attend Yale (it will cost my family a total of ~120k). I’m still not entirely sure what my career path will be, but I am definitely more of a STEM type of person. Keeping the money for grad school is primarily because med school is a possibility that I am considering (though admittedly, not a huge one), and even if I don’t end up using it for grad school, the money could still be put to good use in helping me kick-start my life. On the other hand, I’ve realized that although my (Canadian) safeties are good academic fits for me in the sense that I will be challenged, they leave something to be desired in terms of their environment/community and lack of breadth. Not ideal for someone unsure of their career plans!
@OrchidBloom,
Right, as you know full well, Waterloo CS grads do exceedingly well in the world, but in general, the top Canadian U’s are tough and weed out a fair amount. And while they are more flexible than most of the world (and many of the STEM programs there are well-regarded), they’re still not as flexible as the private American elites. And yes, they may not have as strong a sense of community as Yale. I think that top Canadian research universities are actually very comparable to top American public research universities (though a decent number of American publics have a stronger sense of community).
BTW, not just science but also engineering PhD programs (and many social science as well as some humanities PhD programs) in the US are fully-funded. A few science/engineering masters programs as well, in fact, though there are far fewer of those.
What causes these Canadian universities to have a weaker sense of community?
@PurpleTitan, wow, how did you guess that I was considering Waterloo? I agree that it’s definitely more flexible than programs in say, England, but compared to Yale, it definitely is a lot more rigid. I’m not too familiar with public research universities in the US, but it makes sense that it’s harder to foster a sense of community in a university so large.
I’m actually looking into biomedical engineering at the moment, so the fact that there are fully-funded engineering PhD programs is definitely a good thing!
Note that biomedical engineering PhD programs do not require biomedical engineering undergraduate majors. Yale has ABET-accredited majors in chemical, electrical, and mechanical engineering; depending on your biomedical interests, these may be suitable majors for undergraduate study while also leaving additional post-graduation paths open. Yale also has a non-ABET-accredited biomedical engineering major.
@OrchidBloom, I looked through your posts to figure out what your full-ride options might be.
I think that if you are dead-set on CS and are already awesome in that field, free/nearly-free CS at Waterloo makes more sense than Yale. However, if that isn’t the case, Yale likely makes more sense.
@ucbalumnus I’ll probably have to do a bit more research about ABET-accreditation before I decide on my major. From what I’ve gathered though, it’s mostly important for civil engineering?
@PurpleTitan Ah, that makes sense. The main thing is, I’m not very set. Over the last few years, I’ve waffled between CS, BME, and medicine, so I feel like Yale may be a safer route to go.
Civil engineers are probably the ones most interested in PE licensing, where ABET accreditation matters the most (though it can also matter if you want to take the patent exam). Biomedical engineering employment may not be as interested in ABET accreditation, but biomedical engineering employment at the bachelor’s level does not seem to be as good as most other engineering, based on university career surveys.
@ucbalumnus That makes sense. I’ll definitely have to think a bit more about what to major in. Also, sorry, I missed your earlier comment (#85). I think the main difference in terms of the community is that the Canadian schools I have applied to are quite large and most students don’t live on campus (lots of commuters in some cases). In the case of U of T, the campus blends into the city, so many students choose to spend their leisure time doing their own thing in the downtown area instead of on campus.