I just have a question, please don't flame me

<p>Alright, I might as well get the most objectionable parts of this post out of the way first:</p>

<ul>
<li>I’m interested in Barnard almost purely because I’m interested in Columbia. I know that this sounds really bad, but I’m not trying to put anyone down or make any value judgements - it’s just the truth. I did not apply as a freshman because I was wary of the seemingly convoluted relationship between the two schools, and also because being rejected ED from Columbia absolutely crushed me. I couldn’t stand the thought of being accepted and going to school right across from my dream school, knowing that I wasn’t considered good enough to attend. Now, please don’t think that I mean this to apply across the board - I know that there are plenty of people who choose to go to Barnard without ever having applied to Columbia. It’s just that I knew how I would feel about it, and this held me back from applying.</li>
<li>I currently attend NYU, and I’m thinking of applying as a transfer to both Barnard and Columbia. I am wondering how this would be perceived by the admissions committees as I can’t see that there would be any way they wouldn’t know I had done this.</li>
<li>I am interested in the possibility of taking Core classes at Barnard. I know that you can cross-register at Columbia, and I recently received word from a friend of a friend that would seem to indicate that it is possible for Barnard students to take Core classes, but that they are “really hard to get into.” I would like to know specifically which Core classes are available to Barnard students and if there is any truth to the information I received from my acquaintance. </li>
<li>Lastly - and, oh god, please don’t kill me - would it hypothetically be possible to transfer twice - from NYU to Barnard, and then Barnard to Columbia? This is my least serious question, but I would still like to know if anyone has attempted to do it, and if so, if they were successful. I’m sorry for assuming you’re all going to flame me, too, it’s just that I know how sensitive the issues that I am raising are and I really don’t want to offend anyone. I just want some honest answers to these questions that are torturing me. </li>
</ul>

<p>Okay, now that I’ve got all the bad stuff over with, I’m also interested in knowing more about what it’s like at Barnard. The program in which I am currently enrolled at NYU has very small classes, and I am interested in preserving that dynamic should I choose to transfer. What are classes like at Barnard? Is it weird being around just girls all the time, or is sort of freeing? What is the quality of the English, Philosophy and Comparative Literature departments, as those are the fields in which I am interested?</p>

<p>I really apologize if I am being insensitive or offensive in any way, I tried my best to state my questions in a way that would be clear but not rude or overly simplistic. Thank you so much in advance.</p>

<p>If your only reason for transferring to Barnard is as a means of getting into Columbia, I don't think you should waste the effort of applying. You wouldn't be happy/won't fit in here.</p>

<p>I anticipated that that would be the answer, but I wonder if you could tell me why? Don't Barnard and Columbia attract a similar type and caliber of student? I am trying very hard to understand what makes Barnard distinctive so that I can determine whether it would be worth the effort of applying, and honestly, all that I can see right now is the affiliation with Columbia. I KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT THE CASE, so if someone could tell me what makes it different/worth it I would honestly be very appreciative.</p>

<p>Are you a freshman or sophomore? It seem odd that you would have the idea of taking core classes at Columbia as a goal, especially as a tranfer. You do know that the content of the core is replicated/replicable in other courses, right? I mean, it doesn't make much sense to me that someone would come in as a sophomore or junior to College A. and then want to lobby to take classes geared to freshmen at neighboring college B. The big value of the core to Columbia students is the shared experience aspect -- the fact that any given freshman at CC can start a conversation with any other given freshman and have the shared reference point of whatever has been covered in their Lit-Hum class. </p>

<p>I mean... do you really want to leave the small classes you now have at NYU so that you can enroll in a seminar taught by a lecturer or junior faculty member, with students 2 years younger than you? (if your classes at NYU are truly small, then you should have discovered by now the value of a seminar course depends somewhat on the makeup of the students in that class. )</p>

<p>I think you really need to analyze within yourself the reasons why you want to transfer.</p>

<p>Hmm. You raise an interesting point about the value of the Core being specifically geared to the experience within Columbia itself...I guess I always thought of it as being more a wide-ranging education that will prepare you for anything in the world beyond Columbia. Maybe I'm naive, though. What is probably not entirely evident from my previous post is that I am literally obsessed with the Core. I'm not trying to dismiss your point out of hand, as I do believe it has some valid aspects to it, but I guess my counterpoint would be that I simply don't believe the content of the Core is easily or even possibly replicated in other courses. And believe me, it's not for lack of trying - I'm the kind of student that plans out her schedule four years in advance, and I just don't see myself being able to create artificially the same sort of experience that I believe I could derive organically from LitHum, Contemporary Civilization, Music Humanities, and Arts Humanities (I know there are other courses involved but I think we can all admit that those four are the cornerstone). I came to NYU, and to the program in which I am enrolled specifically, in an attempt to have that same kind of organic experience, albeit with radically different content and a different driving philosophy. Thus far, I have been deeply disappointed, both in my peers and in the rigor of my classes. It breaks my heart to say this, but I think that even if I were to transfer as a junior, which I have no intention of doing, I could have a more intellectually stimulating conversation with any given CC freshman than most of the students in my program. </p>

<p>Honestly, your point falls a little flat for me because to me the Core was never solely about being able to be surrounded by people who were given the same context as me with which to understand the world. It was and still is about this desperate feeling that I have that I need THAT PARTICULAR CONTEXT in order to be a complete person. And maybe that's crazy and doesn't make any sense, but the fact of the matter is that a large part of me has given up on the idea of college as a place where my peers will be interested in the same crazy stuff as me. I mean, people were even talking about Spark Notes on the Columbia board today, which honestly just makes me want to cry. I am obviously so fanatically passionate about the Core, and I'm not even a student there, that it makes me feel as though they're throwing away this opportunity that I would do almost anything to have, as evidenced by this post. And maybe I've been brainwashed and it really is just about the prestige, but frankly I just don't think I'm that intellectually dishonest. Feel free to disagree with me, but that's why I want to transfer.</p>

<p>My point about Barnard is that yes, we do have the recourses of Columbia, BUT that isn't who we are. Barnard is it's own amazing entity with brilliant professors, students, and wile many resources are open to CU, we also have resources that are individual to our college.</p>

<p>I think your problem is that you seem to be stuck on the illusion of college versus the reality. Before coming to school, you imagine how it's all going to be, and your life is going to change and your classes are going to amazing and the entire experience will be life changing. In reality, you struggle through readings, and assignments, papers and tests. Dean Hollibaugh gave an example that really stuck with me. Going through all of this crazy college stuff is like being in a rowing race. You just keep paddling, living in the moment, and it's only at the end of the race that you look back and can see how far you've come. (serious paraphrasing). Thats the reality of college. Yes, you might be changing, but the change is gradual, and it is only looking backwards that you are able to see it. And the change doesn't just happen at one place, or to one group of people. Everyone changes differently. </p>

<p>Another problem is that you've raised the core onto a golden pedestal that it doesn't require. At the end of the day, they are just classes with a heavy reading load. And you shouldn't be too shocked about the spark notes thing. At CU professors assign you more than you could possibly hope to ever read in all of your classes, and most of the time you can't help but skim/spark note. </p>

<p>As cliche as it is, the grass is always greener on the other side, and while you are looking to the other side, you'll never see what you have in front of you. I think once you start realizing what resources are around you, and stop wishing you were someplace else, you might find yourself changing for the better, and accomplishing the transformation you think only the Core can give you.</p>

<p>You should listen to naomiii. She is wise, indeed.</p>

<p>Here's a recent post that I think give a more accurate picture of the Core:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13391593-post11.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13391593-post11.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>To Francis: You are romanticizing and have envisioned an idea of CU students and the core that really is not consistent with the overall campus culture. If you are really looking for kindred spirits, you might want to consider a transfer to a school like Reed -- I do think that Reed has more students who there because of its Hum sequence and not in spite of it, and more in love with the idea of intellectualism.</p>

<p>I'm not shocked about the Spark Notes thing, just disappointed. I am not romanticizing CU students. My illusion of the typical Columbia student being a raging intellectual was pretty much shattered when I did an overnight stay there early in my senior year. And guess what? I still applied ED, because when it comes right down to it, I'm not looking for kindred spirits. If I happened to find some along the way, that would be fantastic, but I just want to learn. Naomi, I know that you're trying to be helpful, but I don't appreciate your condescension. I reserve the right to put the Core up on a golden pedestal because I feel very strongly that I could get more out of it than a lot of current students. Calmom, I'm interested where these assertions are coming from. Did you recently attend Columbia? As for Reed, I did apply there in the high school round and was waitlisted, but I can't imagine leaving New York at this point. Oh, and I've already read all the posts on that board.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not looking for kindred spirits.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Thus far, I have been deeply disappointed, both in my peers and in the rigor of my classes. It breaks my heart to say this, but I think that even if I were to transfer as a junior, which I have no intention of doing, I could have a more intellectually stimulating conversation with any given CC freshman than most of the students in my program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>OK, "kindred spirits" might not be the word you like to use, but it sounds pretty close to someone you could have a "more intellectually stimulating conversation with" to me.</p>

<p>I am guessing that you won't get a lot of experienced responders here to your question in your original post in regards to Barnard students enrolling in CC core courses. I don't imagine many Barnard students want to do that once they see the depth and range of courses available to them WITHOUT having to take the core. </p>

<p>And I must admit that I am a bit amazed and a little amused that you came to the Barnard board to present a question which you freely admitted up-front that you knew would probably be insulting/offensive to Barnard students and alumnae, and then you go and call Naomiii's well-reasoned, helpful and reserved response "condescending". All the while asserting that you could "get more out of (the core) than a lot of current students". That would seem to me to be the definition of "condescending". Along with asking about using Barnard as a way to get into Columbia...And then you go and get a bit snarky with Calmom, who was earnestly trying to help you out.</p>

<p>goodness.</p>

<p>I don't think that's fair. I tried really hard not to be offensive in my first post because I know how sensitive a topic this is. I also asked sincerely what makes Barnard different from Columbia and desirable in its own right, which no one has seen fit to answer thus far. And I'm sorry if I get a bit defensive when people treat me like I don't understand the philosophy of the Core. I've only been obsessed with it for two years, after all. As for Naomi's response, I have no doubt that it was well-intentioned, but it WAS condescending. I am not a petulant fourth-grader who needs to be told to "paddle on" or some other trite nonsense. It's all well and good to be mad at me, but please don't treat me like I don't deserve to be taken seriously simply because I am unhappy at my current college and I think Columbia would be a better fit for me. I know how ludicrous that sounds. I know what the odds are. That's why I'm here, asking for help. And you may not believe it, but there is a small part of me that is actually interested in Barnard for its own sake, too. I wasn't expecting this to endear me to anyone, but I think that I was perfectly polite in my first post. My later ones were indeed snarky, and for that I apologize. It's out of defensiveness, not spite. I'm just frustrated because everyone here seems to be more interested in showering me with platitudes than providing me with the answers I believe I asked for in a reasonable manner.</p>

<p>Are</a> Women?s Colleges Outdated? | The Good Man | MensHealth.com</p>

<p>If you are "obsessed" with the Core (your words) and think that is what you need in a college, don't apply to Barnard. Barnard students do not take the core; they have their own set of distribution requirements called "9 ways of knowing".</p>

<p>^^ That was a really good article. I appreciate someone actually trying to answer my question, or at least get off the topic of telling me I've got the complete wrong idea about everything.</p>

<p>Look, I'm sort of done trying to convince you of anything. I may not have the purest of intentions when it comes to Barnard, but I don't think that they are entirely misguided, either. I came to this board because I'm passionate about Columbia, yes, but I also came here because I was intrigued. Despite all of the efforts to convince me that I would hate it there, that I would be applying for the wrong reasons, and that I'm basically an immature brat who needs a serious dose of introspection, I'm more intrigued than I was two days ago. </p>

<p>I'm honestly very sorry that you feel that I have the wrong intentions when it comes to Barnard. I know how frustrating that can be. But I have to say that I find it a little ironic that I'm being judged as condescending for saying that I could get more out of the Core than a lot of current students (which, btw, I'm saying based on that discussion board, not out of arrogance) when you're basically telling me I wouldn't deserve to go to Barnard, even if I got in. The truth of the matter is that yes, I would unequivocally rather go to Columbia. But I doubt I can get in based on my stats, especially as a transfer, and so Barnard seems like a viable second option. I don't know that I'll get in there, either, but it seems to be worth a shot. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I think a lot of people who are currently at Barnard made the same choice, and I wonder if you would judge them as harshly as you're judging me.</p>

<p>Not gonna argue with you about who seems condescending/not. </p>

<p>It seems pretty impractical to me to consider transferring in and taking the core simply for the sake of time and scheduling. Even if you could as a Barnard student (which I really don't know about...), there are so many courses you must take to complete your degree, I am just not sure you would have the time to add these to your load. And if you did somehow transfer in to Columbia College, I cannot even imagine how hard it would be to "catch up" with all the core demands as well as your major requirements. I know Columbia students who started as first-years who were frustrated with the demands and limitations placed on their schedules by the Core requirements...</p>

<p>There have been many threads here about why Barnard is desirable in its own right, but I will give you a few high points:</p>

<p>--better advising
--more individual attention by profs
--classes actually taught by profs, not TAs
--(this one sounds very cliche', I know, but my daughter is a Barnard grad, and I can personally attest to the veracity of this!) there is a sense of "can do" (I refuse to use the hackneyed term "empowerment", though it would work here as well) that arises in young women attending a college designed for and focused upon women. And this is true despite the fact that there are guys in almost every single class, and many of your classes will be at Columbia as a Barnard student.
-Nine Ways of Knowing vs The Core: Many consider the far less restrictive Nine Ways distribution requirements of Barnard to be a clear advantage over the Core. Obviously, that one does not apply to you...</p>

<p>My genuine concern is that if you do get in to Barnard as a transfer, you will not be happy since you won't have attained that which you so clearly desire....admission into Columbia College. I have never personally encountered the Barnard student that people (usually high school kids looking to go to Columbia) complain about: the girl who "claims" to go to Columbia but is a Barnard student and seems to be less than honest about that. On the contrary, most Barnard students (including my daughter and all of her friends) are happy and proud to be Barnard students rather than Columbia College students. It's just a better fit for them. But I fear that you might be somewhat tempted to edge over into that role, and I am sure you don't want to find yourself in that position.</p>

<p>As for transferring into Barnard and then into Columbia: I really doubt that would ever happen.</p>

<p>On the other hand, Barnard and Columbia admissions offices are indeed totally separate, so there is no way one would know you have applied to transfer into the other...</p>

<p>Hope this helps you some. Best to you...</p>

<p>Thank you. I actually really appreciate everything you've just said, and you've all given me a lot to think about. I guess I have a jaded view because my high school acquaintance who I mentioned earlier on this thread was one of those girls - she literally had that she was going to Columbia printed on her graduation announcements, and changed her Facebook profile to reflect that as well. To me, it seemed really sad and desperate, especially since she was really smart and talented in her own right. It's good to know that such insecure people are a minority. I think you have a point, though, that if I got in and decided to go, although I would never pretend to be a Columbia student when I wasn't, I might be similarly insecure. And that does give me pause. </p>

<p>I really do appreciate all the responses to this, even the ones that elicited a defensive response from me. So thank you.</p>

<p>I totally get what you are saying Francis, but you need to consider whether you would be happy at Barnard in the first place (given your lack of desire to attend Barnard for Barnard's sake). Don't apply to a school as a stepping stone. That's just another hoop to jump through if you want to apply again (and it doesn't guarantee you a better chance for a future Columbia transfer?). As I see it, you should ask whether you are happier with a NYU or Barnard degree/education. If the answer is NYU, don't apply to Barnard. If Barnard, apply.</p>

<p>Two girls I knew that went to Barnard tell people they went to Columbia (not Barnard) when asked. I'm not saying that Barnard isn't a good school by itself but that using my anecdote, the Barnard vs. Columbia 'effect' is very real.</p>

<p>Two completely different administrations, and admissions. They would have no idea that you are applying to both to transfer. In general transfer admissions have lower standards, than straight out of HS. So good luck, apply to both, and try to enjoy the experience. I graduated from NYU, my sister from Barnard. They are both wonderful schools. I then did my pre-med at Columbia. As many people have said, it is what you put into it.</p>

<p>"I just want some honest answers to these questions that are torturing me." These questions are not torturing you, you are torturing you. </p>

<p>NYU is an outstanding school; and in addition to ELKyes going on to do his pre-med at Columbia, more than a few Nobel Laureates have thrived there: </p>

<p>List</a> of New York University alumni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>Columbia has evaluated your application and has rejected you, unfortunately it is more than likely Barnard would do the same. </p>

<p>We live in a society that routinely hands out ribbons to children for coming in seventh place. According to your prior posts you failed to break 600 on the math section of the SAT, scored a 2 on the AP Spanish Exam, and the highest office you held in any club/organization in high school was Vice-president. Most of the entering class at Barnard were either valedictorians, editor-in-chief of their school newspapers, class presidents, or nationally ranked/award recipients.</p>

<p>As for your friends putting Columbia University on their Facebook page, that is 100% correct and it is more than semantics, Barnard is part of Columbia University and the people of Facebook have determined to only have one university wide group. </p>

<p>Not that it matters, but my daughter is a first year at Barnard and takes classes on both sides of Broadway, So far her highest grades have been earned on the east side of that street.</p>

<p>@davidmarne - I don't know why you are determined to paint me in the worst light possible. I suppose I could be offended, but I'm just sort of amused. Yes, I did get a 580 on the math section of the SAT, and yes, that is horrendous compared to the scores of most Columbia undergraduates. I also got waitlisted at Harvard. Can your daughter claim the same? Yes, I did get a 2 on the AP Spanish exam. I also got a 4 on the AP Spanish Literature exam, and a 5 on every other AP exam I've ever taken. I was not valedictorian, but I did graduate in the top 6% of my class. Furthermore, I think you are deluded in your statement that "Most of the entering class at Barnard were either valedictorians, editor-in-chief of their school newspapers, class presidents, or nationally ranked/award recipients." The two girls that got in at my school, although smart, were nothing special. Neither of them held any leadership positions or were even NMS commended, which I was, incidentally. </p>

<p>"Not that it matters, but my daughter is a first year at Barnard and takes classes on both sides of Broadway." Oh, I think it matters. I think it matters tremendously. Why else would you put me down in this needlessly pretentious manner? It is entirely fair to say that I am more than likely not qualified to go to Columbia. That has been demonstrated. But I think you're kidding yourself about Barnard. As for the Facebook thing - plenty of people choose to have their profile say Barnard using one of the unofficial pages. It makes more sense and is not deceitful. </p>

<p>If admissions were purely a numbers game, it would have been a mistake for me to apply to Harvard and Columbia. I recognize that. But I obviously stand out enough as an individual that I gave the Harvard adcoms pause, and I don't know why you wouldn't afford me the same respect. </p>

<p>ELkeys and JohnBlack, thank you for the advice. I will seriously take it into consideration, especially the point about trying to enjoy the experience wherever I ultimately settle.</p>