Can those who identify as female, but were born male, and still have male anatomy, attend a women’s college?
As for those who were born female, but identify as male or non binary… I personally question why this group would even want to attend a women’s college.
But I can see how a women’s college would actually be more accepting of those who identify as transgender or
nonbinary; and how those students would feel safer, in general, there.
If people want a specific non-traditional pronoun used for them, I’m fine with that as long as they are tolerant of some peoples’ inability to remember them. I don’t like the idea of asking each person individually in a class because I agree it wastes time and is thus annoying. Like when I get carded at age 50+ because “it’s our policy, ma’am.”
I would think that non-traditionally gendered people would not be offended by being addressed with the wrong he or she gender pronoun, as wouldn’t those words have “fluid” definitions for them anyway?
I have a linguistics question for @dfbdfb that I hesitate to ask because it will sound so insensitive, but it is something I’ve long wondered when people say, “What English needs is a gender neutral singular pronoun.” We use “they” and “them” for both persons and objects; I’ve often wondered why there is such a taboo against using, for people, the gender neutral singular pronoun that already exists in the English language. I feel I can’t even say the word because it seems so offensive.
In thinking about this in the past, I thought of it more in the context of a substitute for “his or her” in a sentence like, “When a doctor puts on his or her scrubs, he or she should …”
This pronoun is actually used to refer to people in many circumstances. “Who is it?” “It is me, John.” “The audience got to its feet.” “The jury rendered its verdict.” “The court issued its ruling” (when referring to a single judge). “The Palace issued its edict.” In the past, the word was used to refer to babies or children of indeterminate sex. It is such a handy word. How did such a strong taboo build up against it? Could the taboo be eliminated if we started using the word in circumstances in which “he or she” would otherwise be appropriate? (Well, I guess technically “he or she” would now be considered offensive to some). I really am asking this as a linguistic question.
(And I really don’t mean to be offensive here.)
@nottelling, your post (and my more facetious one about using “he” as the neutral pronoun) shows, I think, that we don’t really have a good solution to this in English, because of connotations. Despite your good examples, we typically think of “it” as referring to things, and people aren’t things. Many of us don’t like using a plural to represent a singular, and to my ear, at least, the coined pronouns sound dopey. What to do?
If you forced me to make a choice, I would reluctantly choose “they” and “them.” It’s already in common use, and people will typically understand what you mean.
Note: do any of you attend a church that has begun to use more inclusive language, such as trying not to use masculine pronouns for God? It results in awkward sentences like, “Spend time with God, and God will draw you closer to God.” I guess “they” would be a problem in that context.
I think this thread shows EXACTLY why memos like that which the OP linked need to be made.
But don’t worry, this too shall pass. As someone mentioned up thread, “Ms” was not commonly accepted until recently. Now, it’s a perfectly natural part of language. Same with gay/homosexual, lesbian, the list goes on.
Maybe we are on the cusp of the elimination of he, she, him, her, his and hers altogether. “Thee,” “thy” and “ye” somehow died out in the English language; maybe we are seeing the beginning of the end of the gendered and singular third person pronouns.
That’s fine with me.
I personally don’t see the utility of, “Everyone put on his or her hat.”
“Everyone put on his or her hat” is simply “They all put on their hats.” The former is - no offense - a lousy sentence.
Actually, a professor who didn’t want to ask the question of every individual student and who didn’t want to have to learn what amounts to a separate set of names could probably get away with using “they” as the universal pronoun for EVERYONE in the class. That is by far the most egalitarian solution. It is already idiomatic in some dialects anyway.
“They all put on hats.” Or, if it was intended to be an imperative: “Everyone put on a hat.”
There are ways to avoid pronouns, but sometimes they are pretty useful.
I’m predicting a future of “they” as the universal singular and plural third person pronoun, with “they all” or “they’ll” emerging in the South to fill a perceived gap in the language.
In my world, “Everyone put on his or her hat” is a universal joke sentence used to make fun of pedants, not something that would actually be used!
"my nonbinary kid introduces themself in classes by saying “my name is ___, my pronouns are “they” and “them.” Done.”
Does your child ask to be addressed with “they” and “them”, or demand it? It’s all in the tone.
Honestly, if I heard someone say they wish to be addressed as “they” or “them,” I would think they were referring to having multiple personality disorder. (I don’t say this jokingly, as I roomed for a while with someone who had multiple personality disorder - and a Sybil-like backstory of horrific abuse – and trust me, it was “them” in there, though there was a true “her” at the core.)
“Can those who identify as female, but were born male, and still have male anatomy, attend a women’s college?
As for those who were born female, but identify as male or non binary… I personally question why this group would even want to attend a women’s college.”
BeeDare, to answer your question - I can only speak for Wellesley. The issue arose when you might have a student who was born female but who decided she wished to identify as male (so, Joanna become Joe). W was welcoming and inclusive, and allowed them to remain as students, but it became problematic when a few of them started demanding inclusion in the words used to describe the campus community as a whole (for example, “Wellesley women,” “we are a sisterhood of women”). To be fair - I’m not so sure it was the trans men themselves, but some of their friends / advocates. It got so ridiculous for a while that a student couldn’t post “Hey ladies, join us tonight at 8 pm to hear about the Ski Club” without having umpteen people sob about how marginalized they felt by the use of the word ladies). Last year, W addressed this issue and came to this conclusion:
I believe Smith and Bryn Mawr have similar policies; I think MH is a bit different.
Hope that helps; sorry to go off track.
@pizzagirl, “Does your child ask to be addressed with “they” and “them”, or demand it? It’s all in the tone.”
They stand in front of the class and jump up and down and scream and pull a knife if anyone uses the wrong pronoun…NOT
Honestly…??
English already has a gender-neutral pronoun, though - it (and its).
I get that it’s traditionally used to refer to things, but it still serves the grammatical purpose, no?
And don’t we use it for children when the gender is unknown, in sentences such as “The baby opened its eyes”?
Part of it is that the gender-neutral pronouns that have been developed are simply such ugly-sounding words, it’s hard to want to adopt them.
Dfb, what does the linguistic community think / do on this matter?
No young person I know enjoys standing up in front of an audience and talking about the intimate details of their lives. You might be able to drag one or two words out of them on a good day - while sitting - but, the idea that someone who is non-binary or trans-gender somehow “enjoys” being the subject of endless speculation and bemusement, flies in the face of reality. I think it’s some of the adults here who are insecure, not the other way around.
@nottelling #102: The objections to singular they boil down, in essence, to a claim that they is only and can only ever be plural, and therefore it’s wrong to use it as a singular. As the example of many other languages shows, however, having the same pronoun (better: two pronouns that sound the same) as both singular and plural isn’t a problem at all—it’s just that people get too caught up in the conventions of the language(s) they know to realize there are other, and often simpler, possibilities.
ETA: And on it as a gender-neutral, it already does get used by some when talking about babies and small children—and there are also a good number of parents who get all huffy about it, even if one can’t tell at a glance which other 3sg pronoun to use for the child.
Ms worked because it solved a real problem for a very large number of people. And it isn’t an individual choice.
Using “they” and “them” when requested is really not the end of the world as some here seem to think. It’s just a matter of being inclusive. I’m surprised how threatened some seem to be by it.
There’s already a pronoun in English that people use all the time that works as both singular and plural, and is gender neutral: it’s called “you.” If people can grow up learning to use that pronoun without a second thought, and judge whether singular or plural is meant from context, they’re perfectly capable of learning to use “they” as both singular and plural for non-binary/gender neutral people, and in the many other cases when it’s far less awkward than “he or she,” and far less sexist than the old-fashioned universal “he.” (Which, of course, is why the list of authors who’ve so used “they” is quite lengthy, and dates back at least to Chaucer.) It’s truly not difficult, and it’s a matter of simple respect, whether or not you “get” people who are gender-neutral. (I don’t intuitively understand non-binary people myself, but so what?)
No, “it” is not a good solution, except for pets and small babies. Why? Because it’s been used for a very long time as a dehumanizing insult directed at trans and other gender-nonconforming people. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve seen people, with a figurative sneer on their faces, calling trans people (Caitlyn Jenner, most recently) an “it.”