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<p>It is also inaccurate to argue that it is a big factor where it is explicitly not used (e.g. California and Florida public universities).</p>
<p>CC is not authoritative. Nor is it necessarily representative. It’s not all about stats- not for any kid. </p>
<p>Beyond what you state in the last paragraph, what do you offer them? What says you, out of 35,000 other candidates should be chosen? CC does not review your app. Adcoms aren’t high school kids on a forum. </p>
<p>Fair enough. I totally agree: there is no shortage of ORMs that I know that get accepted into Berkeley and UCLA. I would go as far as to say it really isn’t a factor in places like Michigan and California. I never said that it was a big factor in states that banned AA. I apologize for being unclear.</p>
<p>In case you haven;t seen: <a href=“Selection Process - Office of Undergraduate Admissions”>http://admissions.berkeley.edu/selectsstudents</a> At a private, they don’t have the mandate to focus first and most intently on in-state. </p>
<p>I agree I’m not Harvard level. But neither is the other person I mentioned. The thing that got him in, aside from the fact that his credentials were acceptable to Harvard (like mine and others who will never sniff the inside of Harvard), was his URM status. It’s not all about stats, but great essays and recommendations would not have put someone like me over. It wouldn’t have put him over either if he wasn’t URM.</p>
<p>You ask what I offer Harvard. I don’t have much other than a serviceable brain and solid drive. But his application stats are quite cookie-cutter too. Like you said, CC isn’t necessarily representative. Either it is easier to get into Harvard than I think or the URM status helps substantially, at least at Harvard. Pick one. Don’t say the BS about “not everything is about stats”. Admissions has a lot to do with stats. Essays and recommendations alone cannot bolster a lackluster application.</p>
<p>I’ve seen how adcoms review URMs. And how they look at what CC sees as top performers. There is a piece applicable to all that CC misses. I didn’t say you aren’t H level. No, not easy to get in with 35k apps for 2k seats. </p>
<p>Essays and recs can slam a top performer. You need to read how some top colleges describe what they pursue. Seriously, I say that all the time.</p>
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<p>Not everything is about stats. Seriously. </p>
<p>PolarBear Shark (re: your post on page 16): There is more than one American culture, hence my reference to different cultural contexts. There are certain things that most if not all people raised in the US will share, but many other things that will be particular to a smaller subset of that larger group. If, on a certain morning in September, I say to someone “I have to hurry and get to shul before they blow shofar” and the person stares at me blankly, that’s a cultural difference, even though I was born and raised here. </p>
<p>PolarBearVSshark, you might want to delete your post written at 6:54, because you are agreeing with me. You re-stated the exact same point I made earlier when you said, “The postulated difference in the culture of that American student and the culture of “their peers”, whom are also American students, may actually be nothing. The criteria for sorting that American student and those other American students is based on skin tone and certain physical features that American culture has decided is a racial categorization.” </p>
<p>I had asked whether it was necessarily true that in 2014, black students can be said to have a common culture or perspective just because of their skin color, any more than whites can merely because of their skin color. </p>
<p>Let’s summarize the lessons we have learned:</p>
<p>1) It is offensive to assume that just because someone is black, s/he is necessarily different from a white person. We’re all Americans; we’re all one big human family.<br>
a. Therefore, it’s insensitive to expect the one or two black students in the class to give the black perspective on an issue.</p>
<p>2) It is offensive for white people to express that any black person (or sub-set of black people) resembles most white people they know. Black people should not be compared to white people nor called white.</p>
<p>3) It is offensive for white people to assume that one black person has anything in common with another, just because they are both black.
a. The Harvard student should not be expected to resemble any other African-American person or sub-group with whom the white person has had prior experience.<br>
b. It is offensive for a white person to assume that just because someone is black, that they… ________. (fill in the blank with any belief, preference, attitude, personal quality) For example, it would be offensive if a white person were to assume that just because someone is black, that that person likes rap music, enjoys collard greens, or doesn’t conjugate the verb to be. </p>
<p>4.) It is offensive for white people not to recognize that black people share a common perspective and experience that white people will never understand.
a. Black people sometimes need their own organizations, such as theater groups, when existing organizations are “white” and may even have been founded by slave owners. These organizations may not allow blacks sufficient opportunity to express their ideas and feelings, which are distinct from a white person’s. A reason for the difference is the experience of racism. </p>
<p>In short:
Black people are no different from white people.
Black people are different from white people.
Black people don’t have defined commonalities.
Black people have defined commonalities.</p>
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<p>Well, there is some discussion that holistic admissions at Berkeley was instituted as a de facto affirmative action policy. As I remember, the university officials themselves admitted that URM numbers had dropped and they hoped holistic admissions would remedy the situation. Even after boosting candidates with socioeconomic hardship (which correlates to race), the racial disparity was still not bridged and UC officials admitted that they were still worried about it.</p>
<p>From this account from an outside reader, it appears that they do in fact surreptitiously include race in the process.<br>
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0”>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/education/edlife/lifting-the-veil-on-the-holistic-process-at-the-university-of-california-berkeley.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0</a></p>
<p>That last article was posted on cc before and was controversial. But it seems that they used the same obfuscations there about looking at the “big picture” for all candidates, when in fact race is still a factor. If they had a sequel to “Animal Farm” where they applied to college, they might say that “We look at the ‘big picture’ for everyone, but some more than others.”</p>
<p>In any case, it is far from settled whether they still use AA. And I think it’s disingenuous to say that discontinuing the policy would have no effect on whether people attributed URM acceptance to such a policy. </p>
<p>Omg, the inexperienced and confused outside reader who couldn’t understand the instructions? Folks, try to find that thread. </p>
<p>The [Hout</a> report](<a href=“http://academic-senate.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/committees/aepe/hout_report_0.pdf]Hout”>http://academic-senate.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/committees/aepe/hout_report_0.pdf) is a much more detailed and thorough description and analysis of the Berkeley admissions process than that one admissions reader’s opinion.</p>
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<p>^Fair enough. </p>
<p>I still think that discontinuing the policy would decrease the number of people attributing admissions results to said policy.</p>
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<p>The guy may wrong. He may be lying or unfairly portraying the situation. However, clearly the “confusion” he felt was a literary device meant to broach something controversial. </p>
<p>And I have to say also that what I can charitably characterize as the less than descriptive way in which you are describing the process (“big picture”, “not everything is about stats”) does not illuminate matters. </p>
<p>Why did this devolve into analyzing the admissions process?
I was getting a lot out of trying to understand different perspectives because IRL, it isn’t really encouraged.
For instance, wouldnt it have been better for those who were interested, to be able to come?
<a href=“http://www.king5.com/news/local/College-group-cancels-diversity-meeting-after-trying-to-exclude-white-staffers-249652471.html”>http://www.king5.com/news/local/College-group-cancels-diversity-meeting-after-trying-to-exclude-white-staffers-249652471.html</a></p>
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<p>Never said otherwise. However, the decreased number is still clearly not zero, given the existence of those who still believe that race or ethnicity is a “hook” at California public universities despite the policy of not considering it.</p>
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<p>Sometimes ignorant insensitivity is based on incorrect assumptions. It is common around these forums to believe that there are very large race or ethnicity “hooks”, regardless of whether that is true for any given school (and the posters often appear to believe that the magnitude of the preferences is greater than the likely actual preferences at schools which do have them).</p>
<p>You have an interesting array of profile pics, emeraldkitty4. I like the Viking dog.</p>
<p>Yes, affirmative action has a way of creeping into the discussion of issues related to race. Perhaps we should drop it. </p>
<p>Thats my oldest daughters dog. He is so sweet and patient but,
So. Much. Hair.
Not sure where he got that helmet, although that is the mascot of her sisters school and we live in what used to be a Scandinavian neighborhood.
The best thing about the new CC is changing pictures.
Hope Im not making anyone dizzy.</p>
<p>:"> </p>
<p>College admissions policies are relevant to this thread because of the title of the project. “I too am Harvard” suggests that the students may feel that whites or others view them as somehow not typical of Harvard, belonging at Harvard, or worthy of Harvard. </p>
<p>An addition to my earlier synopsis:</p>
<p>5) It is insensitive and uncompassionate for white people to not accept that racism–both historical and current–has limited black achievement and has reduced social, economic and educational opportunities for black people…
a).It is insensitive for white people to not accept the need for special policies and programs, such as in college admissions, which seek to correct this disparity.</p>
<p>6) It is insensitive for white people to assume that black people have more limited educational achievement or socio-economic success than their white counterparts.
a) It is insensitive to presume that a black student at Harvard is at all different in prior educational attainment than a white student.
b) It is offensive to suspect that a black student at Harvard may have benefited from a URM admissions boost.</p>
<p>White people are between a rock and a hard place. It’s wrong to assume blacks are any different from us, and it’s wrong to assume they’re the same as us. It’s wrong to assume blacks have many cultural characteristics in common with one another, and it’s wrong to assume blacks aren’t united by a common culture that requires expression. It’s wrong to believe that racism no longer effects blacks educationally, and it’s wrong to believe that blacks have been educationally affected.</p>
<p>By the way, I do still agree that people of all races can be legitimately racist and offensive, and as already stated, some comments made to African-Americans are obviously insulting and worse and should never be said. I also agree that people should just stop assuming–period.</p>
<p>But what I’m addressing is the concept that if attempts at friendship and understanding start to become too difficult to navigate, then rather than constantly walking on eggshells and risk offense, whites are just going to give up and return to self-segregation. Similarly, if blacks view white behavior through the lens of racism, they will be offended more often than need be and are also are going to self-segregate.</p>
<p>It’s gotten a bit out of hand when even though a white person may know that her friend’s favorite food is sweet potato pie, she’d be afraid to bring that to the book club meeting for the friend’s birthday because she might be accused of racism. It’s gotten out of hand when a kind black person ask his co-worker if he wants anything at Starbucks because he’s going there at break time, and when the co-worker says he’d like a coffee thanks, he gets written up for cultural insensitivity, even though the black co-worker explained he’d offered and there was no issue at all. </p>