The endowments are businesses and paying millions to their fund managers a year for growing the endowments into billions. Harvard has an endowment larger than half of African nations GDP. Their managers are paid millions just like Wall Street bankers. Their presidents are paid millions a year just like Fortune 500 CEOs. They sell an education that costs “x” to students, student-loving bankers and nearly broke families for “5x to 10x”. They artificially limit supply among their peers to ensure tuition is 2x to 10x higher than those in Canada and developed Europe.
Remember? Purdue Pharma until recently was considered an exemplary socially conscious private company donating millions to society after raking in billions.
No way to sugar coat this - Colleges are businesses. Limiting internationals who mostly pay full fare or nearly full fare (for an online program this year!) means threatening a billion-dollar pipeline of revenues.
Of course there are warm, cuddly, fuzzy speeches of human rights, hardship and due care discussed at the board rooms of the endowments. But all those are a part of an agenda led by $$. Billions of it.
Many schools have been holding up decisions about classes, dorm assignments, fa, and waitlists since the international population has been unsure about their ability or to get here. There have been extensions of every commitment deadline and until schools stop holding up the whole process, the students who can attend will be in limbo. It is not right. And those making hysterical claims about Nobel laureate s and the like detract from the argument for the lawsuit rather than help it. Reason being no one is saying we shouldn’t have foreign students. Just please don’t hold up the entire works because they don’t want to study from home
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Let’s move on from the OT discussion of whether colleges are a business and what colleges should or shouldn’t do as a whole. This thread is for discussing international students and ICE. The general college COVID thread is linked a few posts up.
@gratefulmama Thanks. But I have been admitted to an elite school. Still on a waitlist for personal reasons. (Family ties). But even at the school I plan to attend, they have extended deadlines and delayed making firm plans about classes because they are waiting on this issue. I have no idea how many of my courses will be online or ff2f so I can’t decide whether to stay home for full online. The school is clearly waiting to see what will happen with international students. Every week that goes by, the other 98% remain in limbo
The thing is, bringing up American students is natural since these schools are in America. And all of the visa decisions are made by Americans re: international students.
Some on this thread seem to think there are nefarious forces pushing the hand of ICE, some think it’s existing law. Doesn’t really matter.
What does matter is the impact to students, ALL students that attend a college who has international students. My kid is worried international peers won’t make it back. That may or may not be true. But it could impact how the school behaves in terms of housing, what kind of classes to hold and how to socialize. Shutting down a conversation because one doesn’t like other opinions or American opinions makes no sense. Zero.
The colleges should have had plans for all contingencies. Much as colleges scrapped up plans to keep classes running in the Spring and get kids home: They now need plans to get classes running in the Fall and get kids here. And if they can’t get kids here because of Visas, then they need a plan for that also. Keeping everyone in limbo doesn’t help anyone. And shutting down the waitlist or opening it up also needs to happen. Limbo is a bad place for all.
No disrespect to MIT or Harvard, but school policies in NYS don’t hinge on the actions of either of them. The NYS Governor will make a decision about reopening in early August, and it’s going to be based on Covid numbers.
I didn’t realize there were students holding out hope for the waitlists based on the status of international students. If international students have to study from home this year, like many US students will be doing, what makes you think colleges will go to the waitlists and give their spots away? Students who were waitlisted should plan to attend one of the colleges that did accept them.
Families who want to get an idea what colleges are doing this fall should search their Schedule of Classes. It lists class sections, course caps, locations, and more. I’ve been keeping an eye on a number of public and private colleges in NYS. Some note that schedules are being updated and students who already registered should check back for changes. Others say that some portion of classes will be online. Some come right out and say “most,” but a few just say “some.” There are schools with a lot of TBA listed for the location and some with no location listed at all. I suspect those colleges are busy adjusting plans based on spacing and/or faculty preferences. It makes for interesting reading.
@austinmshauri
I think you are just providing evidence for the points I was making. That waitlists remain open means the school is still not sure if they will need students off of those lists. So students, while rightly planning on the school they’ve committed to, might still prefer a waitlist school and so not feel settled. But all the other stuff you mention points to the fact that the schools can’t be sure of their headcount or how to handle it vs. revenue. The international student problem is a huge contributing factor.
Most schools do a good job of managing their yield. I’m sure most schools accepted way more students than they expect to matriculate this cycle. If you are still on a wait list, move on. Sounds like you wouldn’t want to be at that kind of school anyway that would string along students.
“didn’t realize there were students holding out hope for the waitlists based on the status of international students.”
Big time. Join us on the Michigan wait list thread. Wish schools would just close them now but their in a bind also. Kinda a hot mess now. But all these kids have solid back up plans.
Still looks like about 700 schools on the NACAC list with openings for freshman with FA and housing. Hot mess about sums it up. It’s easy to say move on but if you’re on a WL for one of your reach schools that’s hard to give up if there’s a chance.
Most colleges that use waitlists have waitlists far larger than the number of students they may admit off the waitlist. So anyone getting on the waitlist should assume that it equals rejection, so an admission from the waitlist could be a pleasant unexpected surprise, rather than something that one has a realistic hope for.
This is what is happening. By now Michigan would be closed. But their not. Kids are holding onto hope. Even though they know they oversold by like 350 students to get through summer melt and internationals not coming in. They are taking OOS off waitlist, most likely to make up for that costs plus they need to keep to their 51/49 Instate /out state ratio.
“Every top international student who attends an American university adds a little more intellectual prestige.”
You have to separate out undergrad and graduate contributions, because most of the nobels you refer to was done by grad students or those who came here and became a permanent resident or citizen.
“Oxbridge, the top French, German, or Swiss universities.”
That’s typically not where the American-born nobels are, they’re from Asia, where there is very little infrastructure to support a nobel laureate.
Lot of the income divide comes from access that lower ses, especially blacks and Latinos do not have to colleges that can really help them. And the income divide is imo, causing a lot of the things we’re seeing in society today. If less internationals in undergrad, means more minorities and lower SES, I think that’s a good thing. Yes the colleges are going to have to eat the cost on that, no denying that.
I think there has been a mix recently, with more instate most recently. I think they will keep the ratio. The international students are the unknown. But I would think UMich would know who will be able to come by now. If someone says they can’t get an appointment for a visa until February, they are not coming for the fall.
This thread is for discussing international students, so lets try to speak specially about international students.
Because you see no difference, I see huge difference. For you USA is home, and it always will be your home. For international student USA is some international country, with which he make kind of deal. You know what is deal? That is when you paying price for something that you need. At the moment of deal international student is nobody for USA, and USA is nobody for him. So he can’t have any obligations in front of USA. But he already payed his price.
Try to imagine that you make deal with car showroom and payed them for new Ferrari. But when you came to showroom to get it, in front of the door sales manager met you. And he told that hard times came. And one more thing, his own son also want to drive Ferrari. And he even confident that his own son have more rights to get Ferrari, because he is employer of showroom, and you are nobody. So instead of new Ferrari he will give you old Ford Fiesta. And he don’t see big problem for you in that, because it is also car, and it also can move, and you can drive it.
I know that life is complicated thing and everybody have his own problems. Showroom have his own problems, Ferrari have his own problems, son of sales manager have his own problems. But will you easy accept those fact, that after paying full price for new Ferrari you will get old Ford Fiesta, because everybody have his own problems?
Are you saying that someone who has paid the full price for the college should be prioritized over students on financial aid? I disagree but at least we know where you stand - money talks.
Your Ferrari example is interesting, you do realize that most kids in college cannot afford a Ferrari, but you use that because that’s what the international student is driving!
No, it’s really like you get the Ferrari (the education) but you can’t bring it home to your own garage. The education isn’t going to be any different if you take the classes online in Boston or in Asia. You aren’t going to be able to hang out with friends in the US or take them for a ride in your car.