In your answer to my posting you ignoring that part of posting. And that is very important part if you really want to understand my position.
“Because you see no difference, I see huge difference. For you USA is home, and it always will be your home. For international student USA is some international country, with which he make kind of deal. You know what is deal? That is when you paying price for something that you need. At the moment of deal international student is nobody for USA, and USA is nobody for him. So he can’t have any obligations in front of USA. But he already payed his price.”
For you USA is your country. It is your debt to be with your country through foul and fair, and generally you haven’t any choice. Now your country is in trouble, and you paying your price to support it. And you insisting that international student must pay same price to support USA.
But when good times will come back, and definitely that will be sooner or later, I’m confident that to you USA will generously repay this debt. Because you are citizen of USA. For international student USA will give nothing. Because he is nobody for USA. That is difference.
Look guys: international kids did, have and will keep kicking our asses in academics. But we from the good ol’ USA kick ass in sports, team work, fun and creativity. Working together will help each other learn and grow. Think Big Bang Theory or Silicon Valley. They help us with hw and problem sets, and we help them get a bf or gf, or maybe even land a job. Win-win. Online education is not the same. College is about expanding perspectives and growing into hopefully someone we like and is helpful to others. 100% online stuff is not the same.
What I meant was that American Universities were able to compete with top French, German, or Swiss universities because of the influx of internationally born faculty and students.
However, you’re also wrong, they’re not from Asia. Most of the non-American born (more than half) are from Europe, and the vast majority of American born are also of European decent. Of the American born Laureates, three are of Chinese origin, one is the son of an African immigrant, and one is African American. The rest are of recent or less recent European descent. Of the immigrants, 62 are European, 18 are Asian, 13 are North American, 2 from Africa, and one from Australia.
The science and medicine winners mostly did the work for which they received their Nobel prize after they got their PhDs. I have no idea where you got the idea that they did this work as graduate students.
They are European because, until the 1980s, more than 80% of the population was of European Origin (non-Hispanic White). Until the mid-1970s, almost all of the immigrants were from Europe. Latinos were fewer than 2% of the population until the 1960s, and Asians were under 1% of the population until the 1980s.
African Americans have been denied the resources and the opportunities required from the very first Nobel prize.
The biggest advantage the US has over her competitors isn’t American exceptionalism, but her ability to attract talents from all over the globe. And we’re squandering it. Is that how we will “Make America Great Again”?
@Alezzz Your example is not representative of the actual situation. You are saying that since American kids are American, they have to give up the Ferrari to the International kid since they will always be American and have that advantage once this is over. So their suffering should be less of a priority than the international kids’ suffering. I think you are also saying the American kids are bound to the US as an entity in that they too should honor the deal made by US colleges to international students. As if they are all one (American students and colleges). BUT that is simply not the case. All students were offered a deal and because of vivid, that deal cannot be honored. The American student has no reason to step aside for the international student or vice versa. We are not one big collective honoring a deal with people from elsewhere. The students are all in the same boat. They have all purchased a car that they cannot take full ownership of for at least a year. If you don’t want that deal, it’s understandable but that is the only deal now on the table.
OMG. You did not just say this. Lol. Every kid wants to be in school with normal circumstances. No one is arguing against international students. I personally look forward to some diversity in college. But we are all stuck due to Covid. The idea that they bring the smarts and we bring the social savvy is just dumb.
This is a temporary problem due to a pandemic. Hardly evidence of squandering our ability to attract talent. Talented people will move forward with flexibility and grit and life will go on. You are over reaching with your predictions. All students are getting screwed. The pandemic has changed every students future. The strong will survive.
“Hardly”? It’s happening even before COVID. The new ICE policy isn’t the only impediment to international students and scholars coming to this country this administration has put up.
I don’t know what you are talking about. I’m sure there have always been rules about international study, but I am referring to the current Covid related crisis. I don’t think anyone is suffering more than anyone else, nor do I think anyone is more deserving than anyone else. US has about 1 million international students, some of whom are subsidized by full paying American students. I am not worried about loss of future Nobel laureates from other countries any more than I am for those from the US. I think there is a lot of entitlement out there. Try having a little compassion for all students. There is a global pandemic. US is hit harder than anywhere else and dealing with it worse than anyone else. International students should go online from home We all should. But we won’t because the loss of revenue and the offer for some semblance of a college experience is compelling. But we are all in a boat of uncertainty and risk.
If it was that important to the universities, they would solve the ICE problem next week by their own action. That many choose not to do so is quite interesting.
By what, though? Having in-person classes against their own better judgment just to please the administration? And I don’t think any university can say with certainty that they won’t be forced to pivot mid-semester by circumstances/dictates beyond their own control.
@roycroftmom Truth to power! Do what HBS did within 24 hours of ICE announcement. Action shows leadership, not constant bickering (i.e. lawsuits or screaming woke slogans on CNN)
@Caligorilla Yes, I did just say that in a comical way as in Big Bang Theory and Silicon Valley. And being a mixed-raced adopted American, I love joking about these things as in the comedies. No intention of offending anyone unless they have a closed mind.
@1NJParent Ability to attract talent has always been relative. As long as we continue to have the world’s highest real GDP growth and an economy expanding faster than anyone in Europe, Asia or the Americas, we will continue to attract talent. More, or less will depend on job prospects and hard economic facts. Let’s please not turn political and point fingers at this administration or past administrations as if they are/were the cause of all evils. Maybe in dictatorships we can, but not in our land of the FREE.
Enough about the Ferrari argument. Not every international or American wants to study here for a Ferrari, or 10. Jobs, Gates, Zuck, Brin, Page, Bezzos don’t. Musk and Ellison do. Those who study so hard at home, cross oceans, and risk getting COVID for a Ferrari should go to Italy. Why don’t they? Tuition is two-thirds cheaper! But youth unemployment approached 30% in 2019, even before COVID!
“The biggest advantage the US has over her competitors isn’t American exceptionalism, but her ability to attract talents from all over the globe. And we’re squandering it.”
It’s more than that, it’s that entrepreneurs here can take risks and fail, and can still end up succeeding. Asians have themselves told me that risk taking is discouraged, so innovation less likely to happen.
“I have no idea where you got the idea that they did this work as graduate students.”
My point was they may have started their research while working on their Phds and did the bulk of the work after getting them. They didn’t do this while undergrads, which I think is the focus of the thread, one of the consequences of ICE’s policies being the loss of intellectual diversity international undergrad students bring.
@theloniusmonk is correct about graduate student headcount. Most large US schools have far more internationals at the graduate level than undergrad level. Take Harvard for example. In the ICE/DHS lawsuit docs filed a few days ago, they mentioned 5,000 internationals. Math says: that’s 4,200 grads vs. 800 undergrads. Five times more grads.
Once again this revolves around elite colleges, what you really have to consider the big picture. If Harvard wins this case what is to prevent any and everyone from applying for a student visa by simply signing up for an online course at ANY university in the U.S. You could literally have millions of people applying for student visas based on taking an online course. Given that I doubt that Harvard will prevail in this instance, and is more likely to get a TRO, which after a year of dragging through the courts will make the case moot. They may have a case of undue hardship on those students who already have a visa but that is as far as I see this going.